Hillstream compatibility question

[mikev]

I'm trying to do a little planning here, and the question came up: what are the known compatibility problems?

Specifically, can one safely mix more agressive lizards (H.smithi, H.tweedie) with less aggressive suckers (Gastros, Chenis)?

One observation from this end is that my SpB (alleged H.hoffmani, probably not) can coexist with Beaufortias, but not Chenis. Otoh, my SpA (alleged Vantanmenia, similar to Disparis) seems to be ok with any lizards.

Any other known bad combinations?

[Jim Powers]

I sure wouldn't call H. smithi or tweedei agressive by any means. They are extremely laid back except when a bloodworm or brine shrimp comes into range.
I have kept them with gastros, chenis, beaufortia, sinogastromyzon,disparis and confuzona with out any problems.

[mikev]

Jim,

thanks. I don't have these guys *yet* and I had to check ahead to make sure that I'm not heading for a disaster. Was not trying to malign them...

(SpB, incidentally, is also laid back much of the time; but the moment it smells shrimp it seeks out the Cheni to attack...)

[Gary Herring]

Specifically, can one safely mix more agressive lizards (H.smithi, H.tweedie) with less aggressive suckers (Gastros, Chenis)?

I keep 3 H. Smithi in my small R/T with 5 G. Scitulus and I've never noticed any interaction between the two species whatsoever, let alone any aggrssion. They co-exist quite happily seemingly oblivious to each others presence.

[Jim Powers]

Actually, mikev, you might have more problems with the chenis than anything else. Sometimes chenis will chase other hillstreams away from food. I have a pair of chenis in with an H. smithi, a G. oscellatus and a G.scitulus and the chenis definately dominate the feeding areas, even though the oscellatus is as large as either cheni.

[mikev]

Interesting.

I have not seen a cheni domination, but Beaufortias had no problems with chasing chenis away any time.

===

I'm beginning to wonder if this mixing is really good even if outright murders are not common. A weaker species behaves in a suppressed way and this happens with both Botia's and Hillstreams. Some examples I observed here are:

* Clown/Kubotai mix: Kubotai's are suppressed
* Yoyo/Kubotai mix: Yoyo's are suppressed
* Cheni/Beaufortia mix: Chenis are suppressed
(Suspect the same in a Gastro/Beaufortia mix)
* SpA/SpB mix: SpA's are suppressed

(These are examples of two-species mixes with both in some numbers).

Now, nobody dies, but I'm not seeing natural behavior from the suppressed species. In the SpA/SpB mix, for example, SpA's were afraid to sit on the ground/stones and were reluctant to eat.

Maybe, 1-species tanks is the way to go, with a large mix tank for only those where you simply don't have the numbers? (occassional oddballs, like G.Ridens, for example.) But if you do have 5-6 of the same species, don't mix them with others?

[Jim Powers]

I think the size of the tank and the amount of hiding places are significant. If the fish are too crowded together or don't have enough hiding places, they will be more stressed. I have managed to mix species, as have others, for years with little problem keeping the above mentioned things in mind.

[Graeme Robson]

None to report here!

[mikev]

think the size of the tank and the amount of hiding places are significant...

Most certainly, but some of my examples are not from crowded tanks. For example, in the Clown/Kubotai combo, it feels to me that the Kubotais are denied their natural desire to pester other fish and each other (like they do in the yoyo tank). It probably will not shorten their life span, and they are not going to breed anyway---so I guess I'm keeping them successfully---but their docility feels a bit wrong, but in the case of hillstreams the effect may be more pronounced.

(I'm not arguing, I'm just wondering what is the right way).

And very strangely, the gastros separated themselves by species for the entire day today. Pretty clearly the difference is more than just a pattern, they also have different characters, and it might have been wrong to mix them.

[LES..]

Admittedly i have only really seen Cheni interacting with other Cheni (although they will have a go at our fish if they are feeling particularly feisty, not that the fish pay any attention.) but after seeing them go wild over food I would have thought they would hold their own against similar sized fish.

This is a video (~3MB) I took a few nights ago showing how the pecking order is maintained at feeding time.

The link is to a torrent you will need a BitTorrent client to download it. Unfortunately the file is on my home machine and my cable connection sufferes a very slow upload rate, if there is no one else downloading expect a 3-4 minute download if there are others downloading at the same time it should complete sooner. Seeders would be appreciated.

[mikev]

Nice video, thank you.

(I've seen this kind of activity here, but unf. I'm down to one Cheni now --- the fatal bacterial disease took most of them before I found the drug that handles it. )

[Graeme Robson]

Mikev, What level are you referring to as aggression? In my eye's I've always use the word aggressive/aggression with one fish actually harming another. To me these loaches are simply just interacting with one-another. More of letting them known of their presence.

[mikev]

Graeme,

I meant the amount of interaction that changes the behavior of the fish on the receiving end, this is what I'd like to avoid.

For example: right this moment I see fights between the Beaufortias and the SpB lizard. I have no problem with it, since nobody gets hurt and the Beufortias treat each other quite rudely too. (Incidentally, they attack non-hillstreams too, I saw SpB attacking a pleco, and a Beuafortias attacking a kuhli --- once each).

OTOH, when I had an SpA/SpB mix, SpA's (disparis near-equivalents) were kept in a state of fear, generally avoiding the ground. This is a problem I'd like to avoid in the future, stressed fish is not interesting.

Right now, I'm not sure which hillstreams one can keep with Gastros. The requirement is that I'd like Gastros being able to sit on the ground or stones if they want to.

[Graeme Robson]

What sized environment do they live in?

This all sounds strange to me.

[mikev]

What sized environment do they live in?

This all sounds strange to me.

More than one tank involved.

The fights I mentioned are in a 29g stream tank which currently has seven hillstreams, two kuhlis, two small BN's and dither. While the mix in this tank is admittedly strange, the environment is actually acceptable for all involved and I cannot move any fish in/out of the tank anyway for a while.

If you wonder how a hillstream can attack a pleco, they are of about the same size (BN on the left, SpB on the right), see photo below. Why would a Beaufortia attack a kuhli beats me, but I saw this happening (I think the kuhli invaded someone's territory).