Invertebrates for the Loach Tank?

[soul-hugger]

Hello...

I was wondering if any of you keep invertebrates in your Loach tanks and if so, which ones? I find them very interesting but would not want to risk a bad combo. What kind of conditions do they thrive in?

I have also seen aquatic frogs for sale in some LFS. Would these go well in any Loach Tanks?

Thanks..,
soul-hugger

[palaeodave]

Depends on which loaches you have. I have japonica shrimp in with yoyos and striata but I hear that clowns make light work of them. I also have some nerites which have happily cohabited with the loaches for nearly three years. I don't think they have eye stalks anymore though...might not do that again.

[Jim Powers]

I have shrimp(cherries, tigers, amanos, etc) in with hillstreams as well as Botias rostrata, kubotai and Y. sidthimunki and they seem to thrive. I imagine there is some predation on the young shrimp, but that probably keeps me from having a population explosion.
Any shrimp put in the tank with the Parabotia and SA bumblebee cats, don't seem to thrive. I think all they are doing is providing live food for one or both of these species.

[soul-hugger]

Hello, and thanks for the replies!

The Loaches I have in my main 55Gallon are Weathers, Kuhlis, Schistura. The other fish in the tank are white Tetras, Golden Barbs, and two unidentified red-tailed algae eaters (either Garra or Siamensis species).

There are also snails in all my tanks; at least three different kinds. One I think are common pond snails, but I'm not sure about the other. The third species are assassin snails, and, unlike the others, they have never reproduced to my knowledge. These are in a 20Gallon with Tetras, a Gourami and a Clown Pleco. The only Loaches in this smaller tank are 4 Pangio Kuhlis. The temperature is about 5 degrees higher than in the large tank, 78 instead of 73, kept low enough for the Weathers, but not so low I would be limited to coldwater fish. I would only want to put invertebrates in one of these tanks to see how they do. Maybe if some shrimps would be OK in the 20 Gallon, I could try them there first.

The main thing I would like to do here is to find out a little more about a few types of invertebrates, and other non-fish creatures, to see if they would fit into one of my set-ups. I find your experience more valuable than something I could read in a book.

It would be OK with me if some of the fish kept their population in check, but probably don't want full-on predation, even though that is the cycle of life! I guess in a closed system, we don't really know what our friends will do unitl it happens. Couldn't blame the Loaches, though...escargot and shrimp taste pretty good!:)

Thanks..,
soul-hugger

[andyroo]

I've never had any luck with Botia-types and any sort of invertebrate but for early on, and the fan-shrimp was 2x the size of the clowns. Eventually the shrimp croaked (don't know why- a little suspect) and the loaches shredded him overnight.
Any shrimp with claws i don't trust.

The shrimp just disappear completely. I can only assume they get 'et.
Also no luck with FW crabs of several species in lots of attempts, though they weren't very big when introduced.

Mystery snails, even big ones, don't last with the current bunch, and Nerites chronically get their willies n' eyes pulled out, same as Dave's.

All very David Attenborough....

[palaeodave]

Nerites chronically get their willies n' eyes pulled out, same as Dave's.

Come on now, we don't want to be starting any rumours

[helen nightingale]

personally, i wouldnt add shrimp to my loach tank, as they like noshing on shrimp pellets and prawns, and shrimps might smell like moving food - even more fun than still food. they might be like ice-cream on legs to the loaches.

but other people seem to have had no problems, so you might be OK too. i suppose it depends on if you dont mind finding out the hard way or not

Andyroo and Dave, you are nutters

[Diana]

You might be OK with aquatic frogs (The little guys) in a tank with something small like Kuhlies. However these frogs are not strong swimmers, but need to swim to the top to breathe. The higher level of water movement that most Loaches prefer might be too much for the little frogs.

I have some striped Nerites in a tank with Dojo loaches. I have not checked to see if various appendages are still attached, but I did see 2 of them cruising around yesterday, they have been in there a couple of months or more. (November? December?)

I have tried the following, and still have the fish, but the non-fish are gone:

Ghost Shrimp (Purchased with the intent that someone in each tank would eat them. Someone or more did)
Red Cherry Shrimp and Zebra Loaches
Apple Snails in most of my larger tanks that have included Clowns, Yoyos, Queen Botias, Dojos, probably other Loaches, and quite a lot of other fish. I have not tried this large a snail in smaller tanks with Schisturas or Kuhlies.
Dwarf Frogs with 1 Cory and 1 Guppy. Still OK
Cambodian Floating Frogs in same tank with Dwarf Frog. Lost 1 frog, other is OK. No Loaches in the frog tank.
Bamboo Shrimp with Horse Loach

Overall I do not think inverts such as shrimp go well with fish that are willing to attack shelled critters. If it will eat pond snails then a shrimp is easily within the range of possibilities.
Most Loaches can be quite persistent, and our tanks are not the same as nature, with plenty of room to get out of each others' way.

In the other direction I have heard too many horror stories of crayfish (whether 'blue lobster' or other) that attack the fish, the plants, even mowing down plastic plants.

[soul-hugger]

Thank-you very much for the input, and to Diana for the detailed list. They have helped me come to a conclusion.

Since I like both snails and invertebrates, they may be better left in other people's tanks, or perhaps in the future if I decide to delve seriously into a planted tank with small fish or invertebrates only.

At first my dojos were not eating the big snails, but I have been finding empty shells lately. Although I certainly won't complain about this with the overpopulated pond snails, (in fact it is what I had hoped for) I wouldn't want to see a welcome invertebrate suffer this fate unintentionally.

I as well have heard horror stories about crayfish shredding everything in sight, both plant and animal, for no reason, though I had not heard about the plastic plants! They are certainly not on my list of creatures to try in any of my tanks. Another word of this behaviour from a reputable source, thank-you, Diana:), has closed the case on crayfish for me. I can see lots of them down by the local river.

I have been seeing these little frogs at one of my LFS, and wondered about them. My small tank doesn't have too much water flow, so they may be OK there in this regard. The downside is that this tank is uncovered and I would fear they might jump or climb out. At the aforementioned store, I have often seen the little frogs trapped inside the long, narrow holes between the tanks. My 11 year old daughter asked me what was wrong with them and why they died, and I told her it was most likely because they were stuck and could not get to the surface for a breath of air. Frogs 1 point, store 0. For some reason when I feel sorry for an animal it increases my affinity for it.

More than anything, it is the fan shrimps I am most interested in. I have also wondered from time to time if there are any anenome-type creatures living in fresh water that are suitable for aquariums. I have assumed there are not because one would think you would hear mention of them. I know in the world's largest lake in Siberia there are Freshwater sponge-type animals, because I saw it on Planet Earth the other day. This is also where I saw the fan shrimps and became curious to learn more about them.

Kudos to David Attenborough!

soul-hugger

[Bully]

In with 14 B. striata, 13 Y. sidthimunki and 5 P. anguillaris I have an uncountable amount of Cherry Shrimp (ever-growing population), and 2 fan shrimp, Atyopsis molucenssis. The tank is heavily feed and this no doubt has a bearing on their survival.

The Cherrys have always continued to grow in population and every few months I supply the lfs with some The fan shrimp do very little other than sit in front of a Koralia 2, they are bigger than the majority of the fish in the tank. The most vulnerable time for invertebrates in my tank are when they moult, this is when they are most soft and easy to pick off.

The biggest predators of shrimps in my tank have been barbs and gourami. The gourami have been re-homed since the flow in my tank has been increased.

Snails don't stand a chance and I wouldn't put any snails in with my loaches

I've posted this photo before LOL and more recently on another forum. The photo shows that they can co-exist if feed well enough It's worth noting that scientific name for the shrimp is no longer valid as they are now known as Neocaridina heteropoda var. red.

[janma]

I have Cherry, Crystal red shrimps and Assassin snails in my tank. There are hillstreams, Sids and Rosy loaches in there with them. The sids and rosys do eat shrimps. Sometimes you can see the whole pack of sids on a bigger shrimp and rosys prefer the smaller. The Sids seem to really enjoy this exercise and keeps them from getting too lazy. No casualties with the snails, I've only lost some shrimp to them too but no snail to Sids.

The loahces keep the population from exploding and don't see many of the smaller during daytime. But at night when looking with a flashlight the bottom is full of them. When the "cat" sleep, the "mice" come out and play

[Andythaler]

Hello,

I've been keeping 3 (juvenile) Botia Dario together with Amano shrimp and Aquatic Dwarf Frogs (Hymenochirus boettgeri) in my tank, and they went along fine so far ... the shrimp were quite nervous at first when I put the dario in the tank and hid all the time, but now they have become accustomerd and do not mind to be at close quarters with them (similar to the great picture of the striata and the shrimp sharing a tablet).

However, I once inadvertedly killed one of my shrimp by applying ESHA 2000 medicine to my tank (should remove white mouth on my xiphophorus, but contains more copper than is good for shrimp or loaches, also lost one of my loaches due to that unfortunately).

When one of my darios saw the shrimp floating around on the ground belly-up, he immediately got into a frenzy and shredded it. Took about 5 minutes to polish the shrimp off completely. Since I have seen that, I know that I do not need any piranhas in my tank - the loaches are certainly sufficient.

The dwarf frogs sometimes banter with the loaches over some frozen bloodworm (if the xiphophorus leave any for them, that is). That is actually the problem with the dwarf frogs - they sometimes starve as they are pretty slow hunters. By the time a dwarf frog has made up its mind to attack a thawed bloodworm that is lying in front of its nose, a typical fish has eaten it 5 times.

If you decide to get the dwarf frogs, make sure they are hymenochirus (African dwarf claw frogs) and not xenopus (African claw frog). Xenopus (look very similar when small, but do not have webbing on their 'hands', only on the 'feet') become larger and unfortunately also develop a huge appetite for the fish in your tank.

Best regards,
Andy

[janma]

OT here, but it is not recommended to keep these frogs with fish. One reason is that they can starve but also they're feces are high on ammonia which is not good.

[andyroo]

Hydra are a simplified FW version of an anemone.

FW sponges are throughout the north, including Canada. Folks in central Canada can go to pretty much any river/creek in the summertime and look for, well, bright green spongy-stuff: and that's it. I've seen them throughout the Prince Albert area (well, north of).
Not sure what sort of water they need- quality, temperature etc... Some of those creeks get pretty warm in the summertime.
If you collect some don't take it out of the water- collect it in a bucket and never expose it to air. May have to put it in the freezer every now and again to send it back to its cystic stage.
May be able to get info/samples at the UofA or USask Bio depts.

[soul-hugger]

Thank-you all for your continued response to this topic.

Bully, I love the picture of the Loach and Shrimp enjoying a wafer together. It definitely shows they can get along. I suppose with anything there can be mixed results, and each has his own way of doing things. There are so many dimensions to this hobby that it could never get boring, so many things to try with not enough money or time. In the meantime I can enjoy listening and learning from those who have experience and working with what I do have. (Which, by the way, I love:)) And, of course, come up with ideas for the future....

Sounds like the frogs are interesting but may be better for a planted paludarium or system without fish. The extra ammonia in the frog's waste could be used up by the plants. This is something I find interesting, both for the design possibilites, as well as a whole new variety of animal and plant life. Sometime in the future, I will do this, and when I do the invertebrates and frogs will be at the top of my list, as well as water salamanders and the like.

I have seen the little Hydra before, because I have some in my tank on the plants and growing on the glass. A few months ago I came here asking what they were, because they look more like animals than plants.

I had never thought of checking for native collections at the University, but that would be a fun side trip for a day. I have been thinking lately about trying one day to do a collection of Native animals and plants. But of course, that is another project for another time. I think it may involve a good amount of research since not too many people keep native varieties compared to tropical or marine. It would be neat to learn how.

soul-hugger