Choice of shoaling fish in a loach tank

[ey]

I currently have 10 rummynoses in a 6x2x2 loach tank that houses 12 Yoyo loaches and 15 Clown loaches.

I wanted to add some dither fish and was wondering which would be best?

I have considered the following fish below.

Danios (normal, not giants) - have kept this in the past and whilst they are hardy, I think they are too active for my loaches liking

Cardinal/Neon tetras - have also kept these in the past and would prefer to try keeping something new this time

Rosy/Cherry Barbs - no experience in keeping these fish but would they be recommended for a loach tank? I don't see them as being semi-aggressive or fin nippers like the tiger barbs. If getting these, what is the main difference apart from appearance between the Rosy and Cherry barbs? Is a minimum school of 6 sufficient to start off with?

Tiger Barbs - as mentioned above, whilst they look pretty, my research in the past tells me they are semi-aggressive and can become quite fin-nippy. I wouldnt want them to give the loaches undue stress!

Harlequin Rasboras - have kept these in the past but I find they didn't really school together and also they dont seem to be hardy.

Are there any other species that I have missed out and should consider?

[mickthefish]

if you can get them easy enough try the odessa barb, fantastic colouring on body and in finnage.

mick

[ey]

if you can get them easy enough try the odessa barb, fantastic colouring on body and in finnage.

mick

Thanks Mick! I've never heard of them before but I will check it out.

I think I've decided to give the Congo tetras a go (if I can find any). Apparently there are hard to find? I think they will suit my tank except I need to get some more plants, but they dont sound nippy like the tiger barbs or serpae tetras, and they look stunning!

[Diana]

Overall your list is of fish that I think are too small.
Most are cooler water fish, too. Yoyos and Clown Loaches prefer warmer water than most of the fish you list.

How about looking into any of these:
Congo Tetras or Bleeding Hearts. Buenos Aires Tetras get big enough, and handle the temperature, but are noted for nipping plants. If you have no plants then you might also look into Silver Dollars, and find out which species is available in your area. Some get too big to keep a school even in a large tank.
Rainbow Fish (many species- look into water chemistry and temperature requirements.) Melanotaenia praecox is one good species, but get more males than females, the males can harass the females to death. M boesemani handle the temperature, grow big enough, but are slightly hard water fish. M. splendida has several local varieties, most would work in this tank.
Slightly larger Barbs and Rasboras. Clown Barb, P. everetti; Scissors Tail Rasbora, R. trilineata
Snake Skin, Pearl or Moonlight Gouramis: Not a schooling fish, but they generally cruise around at the surface, and these species handle the temperature and soft water very well. (Most other Gouramis will, too) In a tank this size you may be able to get more Gouramis, but they are territorial, and can get aggressive about defending their space. I have 3 Snake Skins (1M + 2F) in my 125gallon (500l) tank. The male does chase the females, but there are enough roots, rocks and plants that they can all get out of each others' way.

Rosy Barbs are a cool water fish (64-72*F, 18-22*C). They have some resemblance to Goldfish (Especially the long finned ones) and are a good substitute for someone who wants Golds, but won't buy a big enough tank. They are OK as Dithers, but are social rather than schooling. They are willing to breed in an aquarium. Baensch lists them as reaching 6" (15cm) but mine do not grow more than about 3".

Cherry Barbs are much smaller fish, and not so social. Males tend to be argumentative. Generally they are best kept in a group of 2-4 females for each male. They are not a schooling fish, and may tend to hide, not really a good dither.

Neon/Cardinal Tetras are 2 completely different species.
Neons are a cool-tropical fish, preferring temperatures in the low 70s (low 20s C) They have been hatchery raised for many generations, and will handle a wide range of water chemistry.
Cards are a warm water topical, preferring temps in the upper 70s, and make good tank mates for small, young Loaches. They are still small enough to get eaten though, when the Loaches get big enough. They are mostly wild caught, and will develop calcium deposits in their system if they are kept in hard water. They tend to hide under things, preferring shade.

Harlequin Rasboras are OK, but will become lunch sooner or later.

Danios are, as you note, too zippy to be good dithers. The calm, drifting school that makes a good dither population is better represented by other fish. Zebra Danios are cool water fish. Low 70s. Giant Danios are fine in slightly warmer water (mid 70s), and are bigger, so they are less likely to get eaten. They are still too active to be good dithers, though.

[ey]

Overall your list is of fish that I think are too small.
Most are cooler water fish, too. Yoyos and Clown Loaches prefer warmer water than most of the fish you list.

How about looking into any of these:
Congo Tetras or Bleeding Hearts. Buenos Aires Tetras get big enough, and handle the temperature, but are noted for nipping plants. If you have no plants then you might also look into Silver Dollars, and find out which species is available in your area. Some get too big to keep a school even in a large tank.
Rainbow Fish (many species- look into water chemistry and temperature requirements.) Melanotaenia praecox is one good species, but get more males than females, the males can harass the females to death. M boesemani handle the temperature, grow big enough, but are slightly hard water fish. M. splendida has several local varieties, most would work in this tank.
Slightly larger Barbs and Rasboras. Clown Barb, P. everetti; Scissors Tail Rasbora, R. trilineata
Snake Skin, Pearl or Moonlight Gouramis: Not a schooling fish, but they generally cruise around at the surface, and these species handle the temperature and soft water very well. (Most other Gouramis will, too) In a tank this size you may be able to get more Gouramis, but they are territorial, and can get aggressive about defending their space. I have 3 Snake Skins (1M + 2F) in my 125gallon (500l) tank. The male does chase the females, but there are enough roots, rocks and plants that they can all get out of each others' way.

Rosy Barbs are a cool water fish (64-72*F, 18-22*C). They have some resemblance to Goldfish (Especially the long finned ones) and are a good substitute for someone who wants Golds, but won't buy a big enough tank. They are OK as Dithers, but are social rather than schooling. They are willing to breed in an aquarium. Baensch lists them as reaching 6" (15cm) but mine do not grow more than about 3".

Cherry Barbs are much smaller fish, and not so social. Males tend to be argumentative. Generally they are best kept in a group of 2-4 females for each male. They are not a schooling fish, and may tend to hide, not really a good dither.

Neon/Cardinal Tetras are 2 completely different species.
Neons are a cool-tropical fish, preferring temperatures in the low 70s (low 20s C) They have been hatchery raised for many generations, and will handle a wide range of water chemistry.
Cards are a warm water topical, preferring temps in the upper 70s, and make good tank mates for small, young Loaches. They are still small enough to get eaten though, when the Loaches get big enough. They are mostly wild caught, and will develop calcium deposits in their system if they are kept in hard water. They tend to hide under things, preferring shade.

Harlequin Rasboras are OK, but will become lunch sooner or later.

Danios are, as you note, too zippy to be good dithers. The calm, drifting school that makes a good dither population is better represented by other fish. Zebra Danios are cool water fish. Low 70s. Giant Danios are fine in slightly warmer water (mid 70s), and are bigger, so they are less likely to get eaten. They are still too active to be good dithers, though.

Wow! Thanks for the insightful reply Diana. Definitely learn a few new things in your post that I never knew before.

When you mention some of the fish on my list as being too small and potentially becoming lunch, do you mean that either the larger (4"+) clown or yoyo loaches could/would eat them? Now that you mention it, I have noticed a number of my smaller harlequins and black and cardinal neons disappearing in the past.

I'll run through the list of fish you suggested:

Congo Tetra - did a bit more research after making my initial post and am definitely leaning towards the Congos if I can find any in my area. I read that they can be quite rare compared to other tetras and expensive too. They look simply stunning and grow to a fairly large size (8-10cm) which is what I'm looking for, and above all are peaceful. How many as a minimum would you recommend me getting? I was thinking of starting off with 6, and after letting them settle in, getting another 6 making a total school of 12.

Bleeding Hearts - Also worth considering as they seem to look great in a school and are peaceful and grow to a decent size (8cm). Only concern is that I read that they can be quite shy and fin nippy - is this true? If so, I may lean towards the Congos. On the plus side, they seem to be very hardy fish. I have only seen these in a handful of LFS over the last few years. Like the Congo and Bueno Aires, they're not the most popular/common tetras sold.

Bueno Aires - You were right about plant eating, these guys seem to be renowned for that. Fortunately I dont have many plants in my tank so that wont be an issue. They dont look as stunning as the Congo and Bleeding Hearts though, and I have not for once, seen these sold over here so might be a challenge finding them.

Rainbow Fish - I tried to find more info on these but there is limited info on them on the net. Do you know of any useful site with more info on them? Do they swim in the middle/top of the tank? I read that Rainbows can become fin nippy, will this be a concern if I get Congos?

Clown Barb and Scissors Tail Rasbora - Don't think I've seen these at the LFS before, but will keep an eye out for them.

Based on the reasons you provided, I wont be considering the Cherry/Rosy barbs.

I'll also pass on the Card/Neon tetras as I want to try something different.

Harlequins, while they look nice in a group and are as peaceful as they come, are a bit on the small side.

Thanks again for the information, at least I've narrowed the list down now to a few species!

[Diana]

I have had 3" Yoyos grow to 4" Yoyos by eating my Neon Tetras.
Therefor, I would not go with anything that is that small.

Rainbows:
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/

Congos: In my tanks they have not been nippy. I have heard that they may nibble the newest growth on some plants. I have seen them get very excited at feeding time, making it a feeding frenzy at the surface. Other than this they spend their time cruising around, a little chasing among themselves, but generally great dithers. If you can sex them then get more females than males, but the exact ratio is not too critical. Males have the 2-part tail with the extra bit in between. Females have the basic 2-part tail like most other fish. Young fish will not have developed their color yet, so it is OK to get blah colored youngsters. They will color up!

Bloodfins: Mine hid while they were in there with Angels, but come out now that there are more fish in the tank. They need dithers of their own! Not nippers, as far as my experience goes.

[ey]

I have had 3" Yoyos grow to 4" Yoyos by eating my Neon Tetras.
Therefor, I would not go with anything that is that small.

Rainbows:
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/

Congos: In my tanks they have not been nippy. I have heard that they may nibble the newest growth on some plants. I have seen them get very excited at feeding time, making it a feeding frenzy at the surface. Other than this they spend their time cruising around, a little chasing among themselves, but generally great dithers. If you can sex them then get more females than males, but the exact ratio is not too critical. Males have the 2-part tail with the extra bit in between. Females have the basic 2-part tail like most other fish. Young fish will not have developed their color yet, so it is OK to get blah colored youngsters. They will color up!

Bloodfins: Mine hid while they were in there with Angels, but come out now that there are more fish in the tank. They need dithers of their own! Not nippers, as far as my experience goes.

Thats a shock to hear that Yoyos could eat the neons....even though neons are known to be good lunch snacks for larger fish. I always thought clowns/yoyos wont eat fish unless they are dying.

Nevertheless I've decided on getting the Congos.

How many do you recommend in a 6x2x2?

[Diana]

Depends on the rest of the stocking, of course, but a dozen easy, 2 dozen if the rest of the stocking is a bit light.

[ey]

Depends on the rest of the stocking, of course, but a dozen easy, 2 dozen if the rest of the stocking is a bit light.

I got myself 6 healthy looking Congos today and a pair of Sid loaches!

I only found out afterwards that I had gotten 6 males, is this going to be an issue?

I'm thinking of going back tomorrow to get 6 more Congos, maybe this time I should get 4 females and 2 males to balance it out? I read somewhere online that the ratio should be 2 male to 1 female so that the males can fight over the female and show their true colours, though this is not a strict rule per se. If I add another 6 Congos within 24 hours of adding 6 today, would that cause a mini-cycle to the tank? Should I wait a few days before adding more Congos?

Can sid loaches thrive in a 6x2x2 tank with a large school of Yoyo loaches and Clown loaches (ranging in size from 3" to 6")? I had a school of 8 but lost 4 of them and added 2 today, but the Sids dont look as happy as they once did when I housed them in a 29g where they had the entire tank to themselves and some cardinal tetras and panda cories. Once I rehoused them to the 6x2x2 tank, they dont seem to be as active and no longer shoal together as they once did, are they intimidated by the larger loaches? Is there anything I can do to bring out their natural behaviour (apart from rehousing them to a separate tank)?

[ey]

Depends on the rest of the stocking, of course, but a dozen easy, 2 dozen if the rest of the stocking is a bit light.

I saw some clown barbs at the LFS today as well, they were huge for a barb! I almost gave in to temptation but in the end said no as I wanted to do a bit more research on them first. Turns out from a few owners that have kept them that the clown barbs can get territorial and aggressive towards smaller fish....is this true in anyway? Could these instances be where the owner/s only kept 1-2 or two of them?

Another one to catch my eye was the black widow tetra. I've walked past them a hundred times, but they looked graceful in a large school today. Maybe it was the lighting? Would black widows be a good choice for me? Would they be compatible with the other tank mates - clowns, yoyos, sids, congos and rummies?

Also are phantom tetras different to black widows? I saw some black phantoms and from a distance, they looked identical to the black widows. So many choices, I'm happy to stick with the Congos now but was not sure if the tank can handle one more specie of dither fish.

[Diana]

Look up each of the fish you ask about at www.fishbase.org
Find out the appropriate temperature range, and maximum size.

There are a lot of species in the complex that includes Red Phantoms, and it is hard to tell them apart. I think they are a little on the small side.

Black Widows can be nippy. It may very well be a function of school size. They loose their distinct black and silver coloring as they age, becoming sort of plain grey.

Sids are a bit too small to keep with such large tank mates.
As a general rule do not mix fish that are 3 times as big as another.
2" Sids and 6" Clown is not a good idea.

Just about any fish will take advantage of a little extra protein, and eat anything that fits in its mouth.

Yes, your tank is larger enough to handle more dithers, another school of some sort. I would start by asking: What is missing?
You have bottom fish. Loaches.
You have large and showy fish. (Clown Loaches)
You have a school that swims mid tank (Congos, and yes, get more. Ratio is not critical)
I think you might want to look into top of the tank fish.

[andyroo]

i picked up a couple of wonderful little serpae tetras a couple of weeks ago. Growing like stink, very interesting and they've reacted very well to the shrimp and crayfish eggs- they are absolutely crimson.

And you can have the lot. They are about as annoying as a fish can be, with the chronic one-one little-nipping. I'm going to increase the school to 6 or 8 and see if this cools down, otherwise they're going.

But, on the plus side, their constant activity and good schooling has really enlivened the loaches. They're back to their old hyper-social antics.

A

[Diana]

Serpaes have quite a reputation for nipping. It may be that more of them will help them keep it among themselves.

There are other fish with a similar look. Common names include Red Phantom, Rosy Tetra, Bentos Tetra, FLame Tetra, and Bleeding Hearts. I have kept Red Phantoms (but ID was not the best, so I am not positive it was them) and I currently have Bleeding Hearts. My BH seem not to be nippers. They were with and Angelfish for a while and those long fins stayed intact.
To the original Poster: Bleeding Hearts might be a possibility, (Water chemistry and temperature) but mine are a little shy. They are a taller fish, and might not fit in a larger fishes' mouth as easily as the more torpedo shaped fish.

[ey]

Thanks for the link, hadn't come across it before and it is quite handy at finding useful info on different species of fish.

I have read differing reports on the phantoms, some say there are peaceful while others say they can be nippy and territorial. Wouldnt want them to nip at the congos.

I bought 5 black widows and so far they have been minding their own business and scooling with the congos at the top level of the tank.

Added another 6 congos (this time with 4 females) to make a total of 12 congos. Funny thing is that the congos seem to stay at the top level of the tank and not middle level.

I added another pair of Sids just to boost the numbers up to make a sizeable school. From what I've seen the larger clowns and yoyos havent bothered the sids but if I do notice any issues I guess I'll rehome the Sids. The Sids definitely aren't acting as carefree and comfortable as when they were the only bottom feeder in my old 29g tank.

Should I be looking at getting some top swimming fish or middle, since the congos and black widows are swimming at the top at the moment?

Look up each of the fish you ask about at www.fishbase.org
Find out the appropriate temperature range, and maximum size.

There are a lot of species in the complex that includes Red Phantoms, and it is hard to tell them apart. I think they are a little on the small side.

Black Widows can be nippy. It may very well be a function of school size. They loose their distinct black and silver coloring as they age, becoming sort of plain grey.

Sids are a bit too small to keep with such large tank mates.
As a general rule do not mix fish that are 3 times as big as another.
2" Sids and 6" Clown is not a good idea.

Just about any fish will take advantage of a little extra protein, and eat anything that fits in its mouth.

Yes, your tank is larger enough to handle more dithers, another school of some sort. I would start by asking: What is missing?
You have bottom fish. Loaches.
You have large and showy fish. (Clown Loaches)
You have a school that swims mid tank (Congos, and yes, get more. Ratio is not critical)
I think you might want to look into top of the tank fish.

[ey]

i picked up a couple of wonderful little serpae tetras a couple of weeks ago. Growing like stink, very interesting and they've reacted very well to the shrimp and crayfish eggs- they are absolutely crimson.

And you can have the lot. They are about as annoying as a fish can be, with the chronic one-one little-nipping. I'm going to increase the school to 6 or 8 and see if this cools down, otherwise they're going.

But, on the plus side, their constant activity and good schooling has really enlivened the loaches. They're back to their old hyper-social antics.

A

Andyroo, that is the exact reason why I stayed away from the Serpaes. They do look great however they are renowned to be nippy hence why I didnt want to take the risk.

Hopefully by increasing the shoal, they will toe down on their nipping and do well in your tank. Its good that they've enlivened the loaches, always sad to see the loaches lose their activeness.