loach tank gone bad

[ramjet1948]

First let me say that your forum is excellent and perhaps if I read more I wouldn't be having the problems I am experiencing. I am a near-senior citizen and should have known better as I have had aquaria for over 40 years off and on. Ok, let's get to it.

There is lot to this story so please hang in there and read the whole thing as the loach part comes in at the end.

My wife and I really like clown loaches and basically have a loach tank with some "allowable" tank mates. We had a 55gal set up for a couple of years with fourteen clown loaches (3-1/2 to 6 inches), four gold severums, one bristlenose, two discus and a half dozen cory varieties. We tried live plants but had no luck keeping them so we went to plastic. We found that the loaches love bloodworms (as do severums) so we (mostly wife) fed a lot of bloodworms, brine shrimp and some flake (Tetra and OSI). The fish got along great and algae started growing everywhere -especially on the plastic plants. I would take out the plants once in a great while and soak them in a mild solution of clorox and water, followed by rinsing in fresh water and drying before returning them to the tank. There were never any symptoms showing up when "cleaned" plants were returned to the tank. Eventually the algae developed into the "brush" version (dark green and about 3/4" long) and I only cleaned the front and sides of the aquarium. I sought out and bought Siamese Algae eaters but they could not keep up with it and often the severums simply ate them. The algae actually looked sort of neat as it covered everything (including a $70 sunken ship) and it would sway as the current changed in the tank. The water eventually started looking cloudy and the Eheim Pro 2 did not seem able to keep up. I added a Whisper 2 and normally just used the filter pads without carbon as they would clog after about two days of filtering. Nitrates were 40-80 and we tried cutting back on feeding and keeping the lights off(dual lamp 4' strip light with two 20,000K bulbs). This did not help at all. Finally I took the plants and decorations out of the tank and actually took them outside (central New York in January - very cold). I sprayed them with clorox and let them set for a few days with temps below freezing. The tank looked terrible with no decorations in it and the fish were not very happy at all. I did put some alternate decorations in so the loaches could "hide".

We decided that it was time to step up to a 75 gallon tank and I further decided that the "algae" was simply not acceptable so I was going to do live plants again. We bought the tank along with an additional 100 pounds of #1 and #4 natural stone. We washed the gravel and then did the change-over in a very orderly fashion. All the water was saved and reused so it appeared to be a 50% water change to the fish. No losses and the fish seemed to like the additional space. We went out and bought $80 in live plants and in two days the severums and bristlenose had destroyed almost half of them and were constantly uprooting them as they would sample a leaf or two. As much as I liked the severums I decided we could not keep them and live plants together, so I took them to my favorite fish store. The loaches seemed to sense something wrong and stopped coming out. Even after several days they did not return to their prior active mode. We then decided to add some smaller fish which would not eat the plants but add some company and color to the tank.

This is where i got really stupid. We visited most of the local fish stores and none of them seemed to have anything interesting. So we drove an hour to a very unique fish store and decided (as usual) that we were going to buy some fish to make it worth the drive. Well we bought twenty nine fish but altogether I felt they were less a load on the filter than the four severums (5-6") and bristlenose that we had just parted with. We bought: a trio of red swords, twelve assorted platies, two pair of sailfin mollies, small red tail shark, six white clouds, three gold dust mollies, $70 in plants and two 40w Penn Plax plant bulbs. I started losing fish right away, one or two a day and ended up losing about 17 of them. Eventually I lost one of our mature discus. Meanwhile my loaches were starting to come around and the discus look ok as do the corys. I started treating with Pimafix and Melafix but nothing seemed to make a difference. I also went to some local fish stores and purchased some additional fish to try to balance out the "mix" that we wanted. I lost even more fish. While doing a 50% water change after the end of treatment I noticed one of the new bulbs was already turning black on one end. We went back to the distant fish store and talked to the owner about fish loss and bulb deterioration. He immediately replaced the bulb with a new one and we talked about the fish loss. This fish store has individual tanks all using "supreme" type hang-on filters. His water is virtually polished as he picked up a hand full of gravel from one and there was no debris in the water. He asked me what I was using for filtration and he tested the water sample that I had brought. He is not too keen on Eheims and said that my alkalinity or "buffering" was very low (80 after doing a 50% water change) and he felt that this was the most likely cause of fish death. I asked why the loaches were doing well and he said that they must have adapted to the tank conditions. He gave me about 60% credit for the lost fish and I ended up buying an Aquaclear 110 filter from him as he really promoted the flow rate (500 gph). He recommended doing another water change but I opted to wait another week but I did install the new filter and remove my Whisper 2.

We visited our favorite fish store the next day and I quizzed the manager about his beautiful display tank and asked to what he attributed his success. He said the light (Lunar aqualight), the almost daily additions of Flourish formulas and reduced surface agitation from his Eheim Pro 2. I purchased three of the bottles and a dozen cardinal tetras (he gave us about 15). I turned half of my Eheim spray bar to verically down instead of horizontal.

Now here I get real stupid again. I didn't want fake decorations in the tank and I didn't want to spend a fortune on aquarium rock so I asked about adding rock from a quarry (I have a friend who owns one and lets me pick rocks at no charge) and was told to avoid limestone. I mentioned this to my quarry friend and he said the quarry was natual glacier and had some limestone mixed in with other rock). We picked out several pieces and made some neat hiding places for the loaches. The loaches seemed to like these instantly and started swimming around a little more.
I have lost almost 10 of the cardinal tetras in two days and I'm not sure if they are just dying, getting eaten or getting sucked up into by new Aquqclear monster.

And finally:

This afternoon I noticed one of my senior clown loaches laying on its side, almost upside down and breathing extremely rapidly. I watched him for a few minutes and he seemed to notice me and move around. A little later I noticed him in the back of the tank in the same condition while all the other loaches seem to be acting normally. I took an oxygen reading which is nothing that I ever really tested before and found it to be either 2mg/l or 8mg/l depending on whether you held the sample against the chart or in front of it. I immediately suspected oxygen deprivation although the other loaches seem to be ok. I moved the spray bar on my Eheim to 100% surface agitation and continued to monitor my loach. This guy is about five inches and somewhat pale (although about half of them are pale and half are vivid in color normally). I see no ICK or any symptoms on any fish. Temp is about 82 degrees.
Nitrites near zero
Nitrates near zero
pH 7.6
Hardness 15
Ammonia near zero
14 clown loaches
4 veil angels (half dollar size)
3 black mollies
pair sailfin swordtails
female red sword
8 assorted platies
red tail shark
3 white clouds
3 flying fox
5 cardinal tetras
1 discus
3 mystery snails - getting discoverd by loaches as we speak.

Since most of my fish are seemingly healthy at this point I am assuming that unfortunately I may just be losing this guy.

Do you have any ideas or questions?

[raving_wayne]

wow 29 fish in 1 hit is a huge hit on the biofilter

what method did you use to clean the rocks with that your friend gave you from the quarry?

and if the guy reccomended that you do a further water change why did you decide against this?

i ask as i would have done a 20% change daily for atleast a week if i had loaded 29 fish in my tank as the bio load would have increased dramatically

[Diana]

You say "Hardness 15"
Which hardness?
15 whats? What units does your test measure?

I also think you what way too many fish in there, and this is what lead to the clouding before: the nitrifying and decomposing bacteria cannot keep up. When the nitrates got over 20 ppm is when I would suspect a problem.
Now, (new tank, new decor, new readings, change in fish population) it is harder to say, unless there have just been too many changes, and this one Loach is just not up to dealing with the changes.

Fish choices:
Mollies and Swordtails are hard water to brackish water fish and do not do well with soft, acidic water fish. Look into something like Congo Tetras, which appreciate the same conditions as the Clowns as dithers.
Flying Foxes can get aggressive with each other. If you like the look, I would go back to the SAE, and they will help with certain forms of algae.
Discus are slow moving water fish, Clown Loaches need more water movement. They do not generally do well in the same tank unless there are some still areas, and some faster moving areas.
Cards and similar sized fish are too small. The larger fish will eat them. Cards are often wild caught, and are very particular about water conditions:
GH and KH under 3 German degrees of hardness, pH not higher than the mid 6s. They can get calcium build up in their bodies from high GH.
Algae: The soft, flowing look of the algae is pretty, and algae removes a lot of nitrogen from the tank. While you were removing it in small amounts (cleaning the decorations) the bulk of it on the back wall of the tank was thriving and had become part of the nitrogen removal system. Killing it threw more of the load onto the bacteria.
Filter choices: I am running an Aquaclear 110 AND a sump (about 200 gph) and a Koralia 4 on a 72 gallon tank with Discus. This is not much water movement. My Discus will travel anywhere in the tank except within a few inches of the outlets.
On my Clown Loach tank I have over 2000 gph from several filters and power heads. The Clowns will surf in the flow from one of the power heads.
Plants: Are hard to keep with older Clowns. Other people here with clowns over about 4-5" say their fish seem to like attacking the plants. You can plant the plants in containers to save them from being dug up, or use Java Fern, Anubias and Bolbitis which are grown tied to driftwood or rocks, not planted in the substrate.
How to test rocks: Check the GH, KH, and pH of some water with the rocks in it (perhaps set up a 5 gallon bucket and test every few days). If the readings are stable over a period of a week or two then they are not going to change the water chemistry in the tank.

[newshound]

wow...don't know what to say with this post!

[chefkeith]

Sounds like numerous problems like Diana mentioned. But more so, skipping quarantine periods for new fish is a huge problem especially in loach tanks. You can avoid disaster a few times when not quarantining, but sooner or later you'll probably end up with a major epidemic.

Quarantine periods should last 4 weeks minimum. You'll want to consider prophylactic treatments for new fish also. 44 new fish is 44 opportunities for pathogens to spread. Quarantining that many fish successfully is challenging itself. You have to be carefull not to cross contamination also.

[ramjet1948]

Thank you all for your timely replies. I lost the loach which was breathing rapidly but the remaining 13 look very good. All current inhabitants of the tank look good also. I did a 25% water change tonight and then tested my water again. I used a 5-in-1 test strip provided by the unique fish store owner and got the following results: Nitrite-20, Nitrate-0, Hardness-120ppm, Alkalinity-80, pH-7.0. I then tested with other test kits that I had and had pH-7.5, hardness-150ppm, KH-3degrees German, Nitrite-0. I don't know which results to believe or if there really is any signifigant difference. The alkalinity is the thing that the unique fish store owner was most concerened about and my tap water is 120 vs. the 80 in the tank. The water looked "polished" when I got home from work and you could hardly tell that there was water in the tank. Is this alkalinity (which I never heard of before) really important?

Adding 29 fish is a major addition I admit but 4 adult Severums are pretty signifigant also and I really thought that the load would be less if anything.

Which test kit would you recommend and what do I really need to test for on a regular basis? When the fish are doing well I tend to assume that everything is fine and do no testing.

The loaches are the purpose of having the tank and we could do without all the others, but they do show activity while the loaches hide in their caves.

Should I add another Aquaclear 110 for additional filtration?

I already added the quarry rocks but I will be replacing them as soon as I find some nice replacements at the fish store.

My remaining discus is a beautiful blue and we know he doesn't fit in well but we just love his looks.

The 3 flying foxes do chase one another at times but do not bother any other tank inhabitants. They don't seem to be touching the few remaining traces of brush algae on the heater and lift tubes.

[fhm_usa]

That tank is time bomb! wow

[newshound]

it is almost like the poster is a troll

[Diana]

Upper half of this post I copied, then rearranged your numbers, and added comments. Lower half is more comments.
Strip:
Nitrite-20
Nitrate-0 Other way around? 0 ppm nitrite, and 20 ppm nitrate?
General Hardness-120ppm (= about 6.7 degrees)
Alkalinity (=KH) -80ppm (= about 4.5 degrees)
pH-7.0

Test tube/reagent tests
Nitrate. ?
Nitrite-0
General hardness-150ppm (= about 8.4 degrees)
KH-3 German degrees of hardness (= about 53.7 ppm)
pH-7.5

tap water
KH - 120 vs. the 80 in the tank. Did you test the tap water with the strips or the test tube kit?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my experience the Aquarium Pharmaceutical Test tube tests are more accurate than the strip tests. I have not used other brands, but have heard in general the test tube-with-liquid-reagent types are generally better.

I have usually found the nitrate to read too high on the strips.
GH and KH read. uh. weird, if I can use such a technical term. Sometimes high, sometimes low. Sometimes WAY off.

I think you have pretty good agreement between test tube and strip results, and would not worry about the differences. Just remember if you want to compare tests of different water (tap and tank, for example, or store water and quarantine tank) that you use the same method for both tests.

If the tap water tests 120 ppm for KH out of the tap, but only 80 ppm (or less) in the tank then there is something in the tank that is using the carbonates. This is common. Several species of bacteria use carbonates as a source of carbon. As long as it does not go much lower your fish and bacteria will be fine. Carbonates are one of the most common buffers of pH in the aquarium. If the KH drops below 3 degrees then the pH can more easily change, and this can cause stress to the fish. With frequent water changes you ought to be able to keep the KH up above 3 degrees.

This looks like good water for most soft water fish.
If the nitrate really is 20 ppm, I would not let it get any higher. Keep up the water changes, especially if a dead fish was in the tank for any time.

I hear what you are saying about balancing the bioload, and yes, a few large fish are equal to a LOT of small fish.
(Look at several fish that are the same shape. Small fish is 1" long, medium fish is 2" long, big fish is 3" long. The medium fish puts out 8 times the waste of the small fish, and the big fish puts out 27 times the waste of the small fish- Waste, and oxygen use are based on the mass of the fish, easiest to visualize as length X width X height- not just based on the length)

The tank might be just a little overloaded, though, and you might find things easier with fewer fish in there.

[ramjet1948]

Diana, thanks for hanging in there with me. I did test my tap water with a test strip (the store owner gave me two strips and told me to test my tap water and then the tank water after my next water change) so the results are equivalent for comparisons. I like the strips but you are supposed to read some of the results in 30 seconds and others in 60 seconds before they start changing in the air - this is not very practical to me. I bought a master test kit many years ago when I was doing discus and I have been told that they are not accurate forever but I have purchased some new individual test kits and the results are the same. I will probably purchase another brand new test kit just for the confidence factor.

I had joined a local fish club several years ago and attended meetings on a regular basis. It seemed to be a very "cliquey" club and when I sought out advice no one wanted to talk to me. Eventually I stopped going to meetings but did attend their annual auction for the chance at picking up some thing or fish that was unusual.

I always thought that if I added extra filtration that that would make up for overcrowding and overfeeding. I am realizing that I was WRONG.

I try not to think about all the money which I have spent and wasted recently buying fish and supplies only to have the results I am seeing. I do remember in the past how my loaches would saw off the leaves of the huge amazon sword plants I was able to find and purchase. I am still hopeful that I can keep several of the plants which I have now. I want to get his 75gal to the point where it is stable and safe for its inhabitants. I will monitor the various test factors for a while and if they do not come under control then I will do some serious thinning in the tank. I would probably keep the loaches, angels, red tail and cats and get rid of the rest.

Here is new set of test results I just took:
pH - 7.5
KH - 3
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0

I did lose a female black mollie, the tail of which appeared to be disintegrating. I had seen this same thing a few weeks ago on a female sword that I lost as well.

I do have another Eheim Pro 2 that I bought for a tank which I no longer have and wonder if I should add this to the mix. I also have a basic Eheim canister with about 5 months of use on it that I was going to run thru the next fish auction which is coming up soon. Since I have an extra Pro 2 I feel I do not need the smaller unit.

Decisions, decisions. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Oh well, off to work I go.

[Diana]

More filters, or larger filters do benefit your tank.
They add water movement, which raises the oxygen level. This is very important for all animals, but among fish Loaches tend to more high-oxygen than many others. Keep the filters/pumps/power heads going for the benefit of the Loaches.
More filter media mass means that more debris can be caught before the filter plugs up. This increases the time between cleanings which may help your schedule, but it also means the debris is still in the system decomposing.
Even with extra filters I would still get on a regular cleaning schedule of perhaps one filter each week or so, even if it is not running slowly, just to keep the debris removed from the system. Rotate filters in the cleaning schedule so that the nitrifying bacteria have a chance to recover from any damage in between.

Old test kits can read wrong.
Here is some information from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
If your tests are a different brand then look on line for that manufacturer, perhaps there is similar information.

Each reagent bottle has a Lot # printed
on the bottle. The last four digits are the month and year of
manufacture. Example: Lot # 28A0102. This is a pH reagent manufactured
in January of 2002.

Pond Care Wide Range pH,
Ammonia,
High Range pH,
Nitrate,
Phosphate,
Copper,
Calcium
GH all last for three years.

Nitrite,
KH will last for four years.

Freshwater pH(low range)
Pond Care Salt Level will last for five years.

I would not trust these kits after they have expired.

The timing on reading the strips is one of the reasons that the information is not accurate. I am busy timing two different tests, and writing them all down, and am probably getting the timing wrong.
With most of the test-tube-and-reagent tests the timing is not down to the second, and many of the tests are based on counting drops, not time dependent at all.

[ramjet1948]

I will keep a close eye on my tank and be careful not to overfeed. If necessary I will add a second Eheim Pro 2. I haven't discussed my plants in detail but I have a dozen of jungle val, corkscrew val, "regular" val, a few crypts, water sprite, two amazon swords, one melon sword and a gymnochromis. I somewhat thought that any exesss nitrates would be graciously accepted by the plants. The plants at first were not taking off, but with the 12 hours of lighting (one 20,000K and one plant bulb in a dual 4' fixture) and addition of Flourish,they seem to have awakened for the most part. I really think that other than some initial loss that my tank has settled out and is stabilzing.

Thank you for your concern and I will update this topic if things go downhill.

[Diana]

Plants will help remove a lot of nutrients that they use as fertilizer and can really help with the nitrogen removal.
Once the plants really took off in my tanks I had to start adding nitrate so they were not deficient.

Give everything a chance to stabilize, then, but remember that as the fish grow you may still be looking at splitting the population into a couple of tank.

[ramjet1948]

I found an old Whisper 3 that I had retired and put it back into service. I now have an Eheim Pro 2 canister, an Aquaclear 110 and the Whisper working in the same tank. I can't imagine any more filtration would be needed. I will continue to monitor conditions and measurable characteristics with a long term goal of thinning the ranks. Perhaps the tank will thin itself out as various inhabitants reach the end of their life cycles. My main goal will be to make the loaches as content as can be. If I can figure out how to do it, I will post some photos or video at some point. Is that even allowed on this site?

[Diana]

Pics and videos are always appreciated! I think you have to use a hosting site for pictures, but I am not sure. Several people post some beautiful pics in out off topic forum.

Often the solution to a problem is to sit back and let things stabilize.
Then see if there really is a problem, or if the issue has resolved itself.
Keep monitoring the tank, and be ready to do some water changes if any of the test results indicate deteriorating conditions.