About 10 months ago I purchased 3 Dojo loaches and placed them in a 55 gallon aquarium with Odessa barbs, Blood Fin Tetras and a bristle nose pleco. All 3 Dojos are male. Two were large and brown. One much more slender and silver.
Shortly after purchasing them the two brown guys started having tears in their fins. I treated with Melafix and they healed up. I figured it was my barbs or tetras. However over the next few months it appeared the smaller of the two brown loaches was getting more fin rips then the larger guy.
One day in december I came home to find the smaller brown guy was missing his right pectoril fin. Only a few bones remained. This has healed back up to a certain extent. I can't imagine another fish in the tank had done this to him.
Just a last week I noticed the same smaller brown loach had rips all over his fins. I finally decided to move him out of the 55 gallon and into a 29 gallon with some smaller barbs, danios and cories. He's healed up quite nicely there.
Today I came home from work and found the smallest of the three, the silver one dead.
I was under the impression that Dojo loaches weren't aggressive like this. I've never seen any attacks or bites first hand but I'm starting to think more and more that my larger brown loach is a killer.
I'd love to get some other opinions on this.
Thanks,
Dojo on Dojo violence
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Sharkscott2
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none of mine (have 7 total) is violence, towards own kind or any other fish (even smaller fish like pygmy cory).
Odessa can be quite a fin nipper, but I doubt those dojos would sit still while the other fish go at them
Something else is going on for sure, I'm thinking more like environment incompatibility (temperature, O2 level, water parameters, substrate, decorations, etc)
Odessa can be quite a fin nipper, but I doubt those dojos would sit still while the other fish go at them
Something else is going on for sure, I'm thinking more like environment incompatibility (temperature, O2 level, water parameters, substrate, decorations, etc)
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Sharkscott2
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:43 pm
- Location: Maryland - USA
It just seems very odd to me that only one was getting picked on. I'd think the Barbs would harass all three.
It also seems suspicious that when I removed the one getting picked on the smaller one turned up dead a few days later.
The largest one is still in the tank with the Odessa Barbs and the Bloodfin tetras. I guess I'll see if he starts turning up any marks from them.
By the way I've never actually witnessed any of these fish chasing or biting the Dojo Loaches with the exception of the Pleco. He would occasionally want to eat where a Dojo was lounging and chase them off. No chasing and nipping from the Barbs, Tetras, or the other Dojos.
It also seems suspicious that when I removed the one getting picked on the smaller one turned up dead a few days later.
The largest one is still in the tank with the Odessa Barbs and the Bloodfin tetras. I guess I'll see if he starts turning up any marks from them.
By the way I've never actually witnessed any of these fish chasing or biting the Dojo Loaches with the exception of the Pleco. He would occasionally want to eat where a Dojo was lounging and chase them off. No chasing and nipping from the Barbs, Tetras, or the other Dojos.
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soul-hugger
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:02 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
I have four large Dojos and two smaller ones in my 55 Gallon tank. One of the small ones is the gold variety and the rest are regular browns. There has never, ever been any violence between them. When I got my smallest brown Dojo, named No-Feet, he was bought with 3 Black Kuhlies and was only slightly bigger than a juvenile Kuhli Loach. Basically, he looked like a worm with eyes and barbels. He is much bigger now, but slender and more silver like one of yours.
As soon as he was introduced to the tank, he began hanging out with the other two Dojos I had at the time, which were both quite large. There was never any violence towards him by any of my other fish. When I brought in the small Gold Loach, named Jackie, he was also small, and he and No-Feet, being close in size, became fast friends.
About two weeks ago, I inherited two more large Dojos. Their former owner claimed they were being destructive in his tank, knocking over decorations and uprooting plants. Although they are very active, they have been anything but destructive in my tank, swimming calmly through the plants and resting with my other Loaches. Much of the day, the entire colony can be found resting together in a pile, one on top of the other.
The more Dojos I have added to the tank, the more content they seem to be. Dojos are by no means a solitary animal. Although they are not schooling fish per se, they need others of their kind to be at their best.
I suppose there is a remote possibility you have a Rogue Fish who is atypical for his kind. Without actually having seen the aggression, it's hard to say what is happening here. But one thing that must be thought about is that Dojos can only do so much damage with their mouths. Their teeth are in their throats, and if you have ever had one of them check out your arm while it's in the tank, you will notice that although they may suck on it, they cannot really bite. An entire pectoral fin missing is a serious injury. I'd have to wonder if a Dojo could inflict such a wound even if it wanted to.
Your other fish are top-dwellers, who don't spend any time resting close to the bottom. Barbs will go to the bottom to feed, but don't spend much time there, and Tetras rarely go there at all. If there was any aggression between these fish, they would target each other and not the Loaches.
The Bristle Nose, on the other hand, I would consider a suspect. The bottom is his domain, and it is more likely he would have reason to go after the Loaches. For the most part, Bristle Noses are happier as a group. If there is aggression, it will then stay between them.
I do not think the problem is water quality. Your other fish would show signs of this long before the Dojos, which have the reputation of being almost bulletproof.
What type of decor and substrate do you have? Some substrates and decor can have sharp edges that can damage a Loaches' sensitive barbels, fins, and skin. Loaches are either scaleless or have very small scales, and are in contact with the decor much more often than other fish. They also like to burrow occasionally, so the bottom domain should contain only things that are smooth and soft. Maybe there is something in it that's irritating them?
Finally, I would like to know what is your pH. The other fish you are keeping are lovers of acidic water, whereas the Loaches prefer neutral to slightly alkaline. It is possible the acids in the water are eroding their fins.
Hope this helps,
soul-hugger
As soon as he was introduced to the tank, he began hanging out with the other two Dojos I had at the time, which were both quite large. There was never any violence towards him by any of my other fish. When I brought in the small Gold Loach, named Jackie, he was also small, and he and No-Feet, being close in size, became fast friends.
About two weeks ago, I inherited two more large Dojos. Their former owner claimed they were being destructive in his tank, knocking over decorations and uprooting plants. Although they are very active, they have been anything but destructive in my tank, swimming calmly through the plants and resting with my other Loaches. Much of the day, the entire colony can be found resting together in a pile, one on top of the other.
The more Dojos I have added to the tank, the more content they seem to be. Dojos are by no means a solitary animal. Although they are not schooling fish per se, they need others of their kind to be at their best.
I suppose there is a remote possibility you have a Rogue Fish who is atypical for his kind. Without actually having seen the aggression, it's hard to say what is happening here. But one thing that must be thought about is that Dojos can only do so much damage with their mouths. Their teeth are in their throats, and if you have ever had one of them check out your arm while it's in the tank, you will notice that although they may suck on it, they cannot really bite. An entire pectoral fin missing is a serious injury. I'd have to wonder if a Dojo could inflict such a wound even if it wanted to.
Your other fish are top-dwellers, who don't spend any time resting close to the bottom. Barbs will go to the bottom to feed, but don't spend much time there, and Tetras rarely go there at all. If there was any aggression between these fish, they would target each other and not the Loaches.
The Bristle Nose, on the other hand, I would consider a suspect. The bottom is his domain, and it is more likely he would have reason to go after the Loaches. For the most part, Bristle Noses are happier as a group. If there is aggression, it will then stay between them.
I do not think the problem is water quality. Your other fish would show signs of this long before the Dojos, which have the reputation of being almost bulletproof.
What type of decor and substrate do you have? Some substrates and decor can have sharp edges that can damage a Loaches' sensitive barbels, fins, and skin. Loaches are either scaleless or have very small scales, and are in contact with the decor much more often than other fish. They also like to burrow occasionally, so the bottom domain should contain only things that are smooth and soft. Maybe there is something in it that's irritating them?
Finally, I would like to know what is your pH. The other fish you are keeping are lovers of acidic water, whereas the Loaches prefer neutral to slightly alkaline. It is possible the acids in the water are eroding their fins.
Hope this helps,
soul-hugger
Success is measured by the amount of obstacles you have overcome.
Sometimes you just get a fish, or a group of fish that are like that. Some many years ago I purchased a half dozen nickel-size silver dollars. For some reason all of the others singled out just one and beat on it mercilessly. It was eventually moved to the 20G support tank and lived a long and solitary life there.
The others all got along fine and I don't recall ever witnessing them picking on or attacking each other.
When they began passing due to old age I moved that one back to the main tank again when there was only one other left. It was immediately set upon by that one survivor and had to be moved back. I never knew why; the one that was picked on lived the longest and passed away just a couple years ago.
The others all got along fine and I don't recall ever witnessing them picking on or attacking each other.
When they began passing due to old age I moved that one back to the main tank again when there was only one other left. It was immediately set upon by that one survivor and had to be moved back. I never knew why; the one that was picked on lived the longest and passed away just a couple years ago.
Tim
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Sharkscott2
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:43 pm
- Location: Maryland - USA
Firstly I appreciate all the replies.
I highly doubt my water quality is an issue I do 1/3 - 1/2 water changes weekly. And the tank is planted, my Crypts, anubius, and some type of small chain grass are doing very well.
PH - From the tap it's 7.5-7.8. However recently (in the last 3 months) I have been using pressurized CO2 for the plants. I haven't tested the PH in the tank since then. But i've been having problems with fin tears and such long before the CO2.
Decor - I have one power head, it's well shielded so I fish or even a tail fin can't get in there. I used to have a Korila power head and removed that thinking maybe a fin could get damaged in it. But the fin tears continued. I have a fluval in tank filter which i'm not happy with but the intake is well away from the moving parts so I doubt that's a problem. Eco-Complete, Some bamboo which is very thin and soft. I also have a large piece of wood which stretches the length of the tank. There aren't any sharp edges on it either. And like the bamboo it's been submerged for so long that it's soft to the touch.
It seems almost impossible to me that the barbs or tetras are attacking. The wounds on the fish are too large. The loach who has been attacked (Neil) is 5 inches long. My Tetras are maybe 1.5 inches and my largest barb is only 2 inches. Their mouths aren't big enough. The Tetras acutally flee in terror when the Dojos come to the surface to feed. I also believe that barbs, like many asian fish, have their teeth set well back into their mouths.
I'd never really considered the pleco to be a threat but maybe the fact that I haven't seen any attacks other then a few pleco chases may be because the pleco is more active at night. This particular pleco isn't active at all during the day so maybe he's doing it at night. And he is big. Probably 5 inches, maybe larger, and with the girth at the front of his body makes him seem bigger then that.
I'm going to try moving the Pleco to a different tank which he can share with another large female Pleco and some Arulius barbs.
I'll move the two Dojos back together and see what happens. If all goes well for a few weeks I'll look into moving a smaller pleco from another tank in with the Dojos.
I highly doubt my water quality is an issue I do 1/3 - 1/2 water changes weekly. And the tank is planted, my Crypts, anubius, and some type of small chain grass are doing very well.
PH - From the tap it's 7.5-7.8. However recently (in the last 3 months) I have been using pressurized CO2 for the plants. I haven't tested the PH in the tank since then. But i've been having problems with fin tears and such long before the CO2.
Decor - I have one power head, it's well shielded so I fish or even a tail fin can't get in there. I used to have a Korila power head and removed that thinking maybe a fin could get damaged in it. But the fin tears continued. I have a fluval in tank filter which i'm not happy with but the intake is well away from the moving parts so I doubt that's a problem. Eco-Complete, Some bamboo which is very thin and soft. I also have a large piece of wood which stretches the length of the tank. There aren't any sharp edges on it either. And like the bamboo it's been submerged for so long that it's soft to the touch.
It seems almost impossible to me that the barbs or tetras are attacking. The wounds on the fish are too large. The loach who has been attacked (Neil) is 5 inches long. My Tetras are maybe 1.5 inches and my largest barb is only 2 inches. Their mouths aren't big enough. The Tetras acutally flee in terror when the Dojos come to the surface to feed. I also believe that barbs, like many asian fish, have their teeth set well back into their mouths.
I'd never really considered the pleco to be a threat but maybe the fact that I haven't seen any attacks other then a few pleco chases may be because the pleco is more active at night. This particular pleco isn't active at all during the day so maybe he's doing it at night. And he is big. Probably 5 inches, maybe larger, and with the girth at the front of his body makes him seem bigger then that.
I'm going to try moving the Pleco to a different tank which he can share with another large female Pleco and some Arulius barbs.
I'll move the two Dojos back together and see what happens. If all goes well for a few weeks I'll look into moving a smaller pleco from another tank in with the Dojos.
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soul-hugger
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:02 pm
- Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Sounds like the tank conditions are good; very similar to the one my Dojos are in. The pH is good at 7.5-8; however it could be much lower now that you are running Co2. I would suggest checking this again just to be sure. If you don't have the tests at home, your favourite LFS will do it for you at no charge.
The filter and powerheads should not bother the Loaches. Although Dojos are among the Loaches that like the least water flow, they are still from rivers and seem to benefit from some water movement; in fact this is good for all your fish and plants too. I cannot see the intake heads doing them any damage, even Kuhlies are too large to fit through the gaps and will generally stay away from them unless a tasty morsel is stuck to it.
It seems reasonable to eliminate the Barbs and Tetras. They are much smaller than your Loaches and are unlikely to cause such damage. Actually it would be next to impossible unless the Loaches are sick or dying and the whole lot is picking on them.
Moving the Pleco is a good step in the process of elimination. If the Loaches start to heal up after he is gone, you have your answer. Our fish seem to exhibit their most fascinating behaviours when we are not looking.
If this does not work, the only other thing I would suggest is the substrate. I looked up Eco-Complete and although most are saying Loaches are fine with it, there are also a few who have discovered irritations from it. However if it is only the fins and not the barbels eroding, this seems unlikely.
Bye for Now..,
soul-hugger
The filter and powerheads should not bother the Loaches. Although Dojos are among the Loaches that like the least water flow, they are still from rivers and seem to benefit from some water movement; in fact this is good for all your fish and plants too. I cannot see the intake heads doing them any damage, even Kuhlies are too large to fit through the gaps and will generally stay away from them unless a tasty morsel is stuck to it.
It seems reasonable to eliminate the Barbs and Tetras. They are much smaller than your Loaches and are unlikely to cause such damage. Actually it would be next to impossible unless the Loaches are sick or dying and the whole lot is picking on them.
Moving the Pleco is a good step in the process of elimination. If the Loaches start to heal up after he is gone, you have your answer. Our fish seem to exhibit their most fascinating behaviours when we are not looking.
If this does not work, the only other thing I would suggest is the substrate. I looked up Eco-Complete and although most are saying Loaches are fine with it, there are also a few who have discovered irritations from it. However if it is only the fins and not the barbels eroding, this seems unlikely.
Bye for Now..,
soul-hugger
Success is measured by the amount of obstacles you have overcome.
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Sharkscott2
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:43 pm
- Location: Maryland - USA
Yea, it's only fins being damaged including the dorsal fin. So I doubt it's the substrate. I keep Cories and Dwarf Botia on Eco Complete without a problem.
So far no damage to any Dojos although it's only been a tad over 24 hours.
But my female Pleco who has been living in my 75 gallon for about a year and had become very fat is now terribly skinny, almost hollow looking. And the male which was removed from the Dojo tank is guarding a length of Bamboo. I can only assume it's filled with eggs.
It didn't take them long to figure out what to do with each other.
So far no damage to any Dojos although it's only been a tad over 24 hours.
But my female Pleco who has been living in my 75 gallon for about a year and had become very fat is now terribly skinny, almost hollow looking. And the male which was removed from the Dojo tank is guarding a length of Bamboo. I can only assume it's filled with eggs.
It didn't take them long to figure out what to do with each other.
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