Black dots on clown Loaches

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:52 pm

A long update-
I think I'm nearing a conclusion for the cause of the freckles. I ordered a TDS meter (Total Dissolved Solids) a few days ago so that I can verify my observations.
What happened-
I opened up a water-bridge from the quarantine tank that goes to the 95g tank (I got rid of the gravel and changed to sand, did a 100% water change, and removed all the driftwood and slate in this tank). I didn't think about what I was doing, but before I knew it one of the clowns swam over to the other tank through the water-bridge. This clown then went a little nuts, swimming back and forth, and was breathing quite rapidly. This clown was definitely stressed from the sudden change in water and unexpectedly this clown developed 3 very noticeable black freckles, and I'm fairly sure I didn't see any freckles this noticeable before. The clown swam back to the quarantine tank and appears to be back to normal now. Afterwards, I let the water mix between the 2 tanks (by moving a filter intake), so this TDS shock shouldn't happen again.

2 times now recently I have noticed black freckles crop up suddenly. Both times large water changes were involved.
I think the reason water changes may be causing the freckles is because there was a sudden TDS drop in the water during both occurrences. I think water changes, big or small, won't freckle the clowns if the TDS change is small though. I think some clown loaches can handle TDS drops better than others and that stress probably also plays a role.


Now IMO, TDS changes make perfect sense for the bad freckle outbreaks that my clowns were having. I add plant fertilizers to the water in my main tanks. This probably raised the TDS significantly. The main tanks also have substrates that raise the TDS some.. I use Eco Complete, Fluorite, and Crushed Coral in some of the tanks. DOC’s also played a factor. Driftwood Detritus, Decaying Plant Matter, and Fish Waste probably added to the total.
At the peak of the freckle outbreak I had just added more driftwood to the tanks, so I was doing large water changes to get rid of the tea colored tannin stains in the water.

When I get the TDS meter I’ll be able to monitor this closely. I'll try not to make any sudden TDS changes for now on. So if the freckles come back I'll know it's not TDS changes causing the freckles. I don't want to subject any of my clowns to this TDS shock stress ever again.

crazie.eddie
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Post by crazie.eddie » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:57 am

Those who experienced the spots on their loaches, how long have you had them?

I've had my loaches for a long time and I've never seen them with black spots. I watch my fish, especially my loaches daily. Most recently, I've been doing frequent (every 3-4 days) large WC (35%-45%) recently due to my discus and I still haven't noticed any spots.

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:18 am

I hope you are not confusing Water Changes with TDS drops.

Water changes alone DO NOT cause any problems. Water changes that drop TDS rapidly IS the factor.

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:17 am

This might be my last update for awhile. I might be getting a new job soon and will working the midnight shift, so I won’t have much computer access anymore. I will be one step closer to building my dream tank/pond though.

I’ve been learning a heck of a lot from all the research I’ve been doing lately. I've reviewed similar black spot cases of other fish species besides clown loaches, and a large TDS drops at one time or another has been the common denominator in about every single case.

A large TDS drop is definitely a traumatic event to fish. A massive TDS drop can do severe damage to a fish's Osmoregulation Functions.

Some Symptoms of Severe TDS shock-
1. Death
Hemorrhage of gills
Swim bladder problems
Bloating to the Spleen and/or Kidneys (Dropsy)
Dehydration of the liver

Other possible symptoms-
Black/Brown freckles or blotches
Offensive odors released from the kidneys
Pop Eye

Acclimating fish slowly has been overlooked by me for such a long time. I know I’ve lost dozens of fish a day after I got them because I didn’t acclimate them to my tanks water slow enough or I lost fish a day after a large water change. For now on, for my new arrivals, I’ll definitely be testing the bag water’s TDS and be checking my tank water’s TDS before water changes.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone by my assertiveness..

Added reading if anyone is still interested -

Osmotic Related articles/links-
http://www.msnusers.com/LyreTailsAquarium/osmosis.msnw
http://aquafacts.net/wiki/index.php/Osmotic_shock

Here’s a thread about mystery TDS deaths solved-
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/2/7/73527/94333

A few Black spot/ freckle cases-
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... hp?t=85186
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=42934
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=35535

Black spots / TDS shock kills fish
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=76191

Black Spots/Dropsy case
http://experts.about.com/q/1472/1788719.htm

Oh, the Confusion I’ve been through-
And Black spot threads that my dumb head has been bouncing around in-
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=51862
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=67171
Last edited by chefkeith on Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:29 am

Thanks chefkeith!
Because you had an issue that was bugging you valuable information is now available to the rest of us. Thanks! 8)

I've never really thought about TDS much (if at all) but when something bugs me I go looking. You have likely saved me and my fish some future traumas. Is VERY good.

Thanks again. :D

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:15 pm

Your welcome Sheri. I just hope I'm 100% correct this time. I've been wrong so many times before.

I will add and I know I've heard it hundreds of times-

that Evaportation is the main cause of escalating Hardness and TDS to aquarium water. Prevention is to top off the tank with RO before water changes. This is something I've never done and I have a 100 gallon per day RO unit connected to my kitchen faucet/sink. I could easily run a RO water line to a float valve in my tank, so the tanks will top off automatically.

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midman
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Post by midman » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:24 am

And I hope my post hasn't caused you too much time and effort :wink:
All weeks run up to Friday - but how quickly can you sprint from Monday.

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:12 pm

I've reached my conclusion-

TDS drops from water changes can cause black spots/freckles to clown loaches.

TDS levels raise significantly from plant fertilizer dosing, but even more so from long-term water evaporation. My solution will be to top off with RO water and not to add ferts unless the TDS measurement shows that the plants need dosing.

My tap water TDS= 114 ppm
Main tanks TDS 10 day ago = 253 ppm
Main tanks TDS Today (5 - 25% water changes since)- 153 ppm

Each dose of my PMDD plant fertilizer solution raises the main tanks TDS by- 97 ppm

Another big factor-
During water changes with my multi-tank system I only add water to one tank. The TDS change in this "fill" tank drops very quickly (to 164 from 253 during the 1st water change) then slowly raised as the fresh water was distributed to the other tanks.
The clown loaches in this "fill" tank showed new black spots immediately, while clowns in the other tanks showed no effects. Clowns that swam over to the "fill" tank shortly after showed some fresh black spots also. To help remedy this TDS problem in the "fill" tank I've added a 700gph pump to circulate the water faster from tank to tank.

another TDS factor-
Adding 1 tsp of salt to 1 gallon of water raises the TDS by 2535 ppm!
When I gave the clowns in the q-tank a prolonged salt water bath to help get rid of the black spots, I set-up a condition for future black spots the next time I did a water change.

Some clown loaches are more sensitive to TDS drops than others. Probably these clowns over their lifetime have suffered more from these TDS osmolarity changes.

The only question I have now is what are the black spots? My guess is that it’s probably melanin content discharging from the body because of the sudden increase of internal pressures.

newshound
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Post by newshound » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:40 pm

All I can say is WOW :shock:
I have never seen those spots because I do large water changes, then slowly fill the tank back up over several hours.
drain your pool!

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:53 pm

Water changes wasn't the real problem though. TDS drops was.
One thing I didn't mention is that I've removed all the rocks from my tanks because I found out later that they were contributing to the increases in TDS also.
To measure this I took 4 buckets of RO water and put a rock in 3 of the buckets. Then I measured the TDS of each bucket daily for a few weeks. I couldn't believe the results. Some of those rocks I had were real bad.
Anyways, the black spots haven't gotton worse since I've been monitoring the TDS. I now can do large water changes without having massive black spot breakouts.

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LoachOrgy
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Post by LoachOrgy » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:00 am

one of my smaller loaches has a spot on his fin that is black. i think its like a birth mark. i call him spot for this reason! lol

doglover_50
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a few notes from a newbie to the site

Post by doglover_50 » Sun May 06, 2007 10:02 pm

For what it's worth, with my 4 clowns ~12 months in my 46gallon
1. Phew--glad my spots are not a disease!
2. I do have african driftwood in my tank.
3) I'm on a well, so chlorine and chloramine haven't had anything to do with it. My TDS reads around 250 out of the tap, slightly elevated nitrates (which I keep my eye on, though never any problems)
4) I keep fresh and reef tanks, so I have my own 4-stage RO/DI unit. All water to my reef tanks is RO/DI. I do NOT use RO/DI for my loach tank. In my discussions with very experienced hobbyists of both fresh and salt, they have recommended NOT using it for fresh---however, this was not specifically in relation to the black spot issue here.

Glad to find out it just about as life threatening as zits! :lol:

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Sun May 06, 2007 11:53 pm

What's the TDS of your loach tank?

doglover_50
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tds

Post by doglover_50 » Sun May 06, 2007 11:58 pm

I'll have to check. To make it worthwhile, though, I'm going to need to check it PRIOR to a water change, and after a water change. Will keep you posted on that. I would think given yours ideas you'd need to keep an idea of this pre/post TDS reading with water changes; then secondly, how much the TDS would have to drop in the tank to put the clowns at risk for the brown spots. In any case, I'll post the data when I have it.

doglover_50
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TRS READINGS

Post by doglover_50 » Mon May 07, 2007 1:12 pm

Keith,

TDS out of the tap (well) is 250, TDS on the tank last night was 450.

If I am doing my math correctly (which can be suspect), my 10% WCs
would lower my tank TDS from 450 to around 430. That appears to me to be a quite small change to me in a 10% WC.

I've thought quite a bit about your hypothesis, and I'm having trouble seeing that this would be he culprit. My logic would be an extension of logic that TDS changes would logically then affect other fish, etc. And since I keep reef tanks, that's what I'm thinking of in particular, because those systems and organisms are generally much more fragile than fresh, loaches, etc... So when I topoff my reef tanks, (with fish and inverts and corals), the TDS of the tank itself is around the same as my loach tank--I'd need to double check for exact #. However, for topoff (around 10% tank volume per week) I use the recommded, which is RO/DI water. The water change H2O has a TDS of 0-5 ppm or less. And for people like me with no automated topoff unit, I just slowly pour in the gallon of RO/DI water each day. I know that's different than doing it all at once, but when I do my water changes with RO/DI water, that is 10% all at once.

Whatever it is, the brown spot thing is a curious phenomenon!

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