Black dots on clown Loaches

[chefkeith]

Here's another old pic from last year of the freckles when they were at their worst-

[chefkeith]

Here's an interesting article that I just read-
http://www.koicarp.net/koi_medication/p ... _spots.htm

"Black Spots"
"Normally more noticable on a Kohaku that was otherwise unblemished - Some little black spots appear these are called Shimi, but should not be confused with that particular koi suddenly producing a definite black pigment which develops into a definite black spot .. these may be more permanent
This is an unfortunate genetic defect in some fish such as a Kohaku when it gets some little black dots and they're suddenly a Sanke.

There is also many now that believe that these small black spots, or shimi's may be caused by the actual water conditions such as a high turnover rate or to an exposure to caustic irritants such as Chlorine, which of course is now contained in our everyday tap water - thus it is even more important that the water entering our pond and tank systems is fed through a water purification unit that does remove traces of Chlorine and other impurities. Why do we believe this could cause these Shimi's ? Well it is rarely noted that in natural green water ponds these Shimi's are much less frequent, if ever .... so there may be something in trying to provide green water at a level that we can still view our prized possessions.

Another condition that can cause black spots to appear is a type the black appears on the fins and body and this could be caused by sudden stress levels or from some pond water treatment that did not suit that particular fish ... For example: Fish that may be badly ammonia burned by a filtration failure or simply not sufficient filtration and this can cause these blackened areas and is called 'Melanophore Migration'. Severe parasitic attack can later cause such blackening of the skin but as the skin starts to heal then the blackening may start to disappear and may not permanent, but may take two to four weeks before showing any real signs of improvement.

Shimi's can be removed - but this should be done by someone who has knowledge of using anaesthetics and is used to treating fish .. the process is that the koi is anaesthetised and then once the fish is calm and will not flap about on the top of a bench or table covered with a damp cloth, then the shimi can very carefully be scraped away using a sharp scalpel ...if it is a true shimi then it is like black ink just under the mucus layer and will come away quite easily .... once the shimi has been removed I suggest that you place a dab of topical dressing on that area to prevent a secondary infection from setting in .... prevention is of course better than a cure ..."

[chefkeith]

Emma does daily water changes,
Midman was doing big water changes, and
I've been doing very large water changes as well.

High Water Turnover Rate causing the black freckles sounds very plausable to me.


Here's another pic of my clowns

[midman]

I am inclined to agree with you on this one, as far as water changes are concerned. This pigment only occured when I started doing large water changes. I bought some test kits the other week to test the water and I found the levels to be 1 for GH and 7 for KH. Not sure what this equates to in PPM - can't remember the conversion. These were the amount of drops I had to put in to change the test water colour. PH is around 7.2. I got my Nitrates down finally by introducing a continually cycling powerhead and tube system that I made which forces the tank water through a nitrate removal resin before putting the water straight back. I use an old powerhead to circulate it. I can now actually measure nitrate at between 10 -20 ppm which is a lot better than before. Put it like this - the amount was off the scale I was changing water all the time, even filtering the water from the tap for nitrate, but with no luck. This drip system seems to work really well. I just had to keep recharging the ion exchange resin to begin with until it got the amounts down. I now have a new tank which is a lot bigger, so hopefully all will be well from now on.

To go back to the matter under discussion, I am sure all these changes had an effect and maybe produced this pigmentation.

[midman]

By the way, great examples with your photos.

[Emma Turner]

Interesting find, chefkeith, but remember I have 45 clowns in my tank, and only a handful have the black freckles. All are exposed to the same conditions.

Emma

[mikev]

Emma does daily water changes,
Midman was doing big water changes, and
I've been doing very large water changes as well.

High Water Turnover Rate causing the black freckles sounds very plausable to me.

If this is true, something possibly worth trying: put new water in slowly.

I noticed that fast water changes are not liked by the barbs (Odessas, the quality of their color seems to depend a lot on conditions). So when changing the water in their tank, I'll put the new water over a couple of hours: a two bucket change, put in half a bucket every half-hour, a bit like acclimating. While I have no evidence that loaches care about fast changes, I err in this directions with other tanks too, trying to do something else between adding new buckets.

[chefkeith]

Same here Emma, not all my clowns have the black freckles. Maybe because those clowns have an unblemished slime coat or they are in a different tank when I do water changes.

How does this sound-

Slime Coat Blemish + High Water Turnover = Black Freckle?

[Emma Turner]

If this is true, something possibly worth trying: put new water in slowly.

I noticed that fast water changes are not liked by the barbs (Odessas, the quality of their color seems to depend a lot on conditions). So when changing the water in their tank, I'll put the new water over a couple of hours: a two bucket change, put in half a bucket every half-hour, a bit like acclimating. While I have no evidence that loaches care about fast changes, I err in this directions with other tanks too, trying to do something else between adding new buckets.

Although our daily water changes are considered 'large' they are not really, as they are only approx 10% of the tank volume. Yes, 100 litres sounds a lot, but remember that it is in proportion to the total tank volume of 1000 litres. This is pumped into the tank over a 5-10 minute period (never actually timed it) so it is not 'too quick' as it equates to approx 10 litres or so a minute (1% of the aquarium volume per minute). As for fish not liking it, ours clearly do! Particularly the barbs, who actively seek out the flow and the actual point where the new water enters the aquarium, swimming right through the flow and back and forth through it as much as they can. Many of the smaller clown loaches come out and start to become more active, and are clearly not distressed by it.

There is nothing to say that the black spots are not a natural pigment/freckle phenomenon in clown loaches. The trouble is that we don't get to see any close-up photographs or films of clown loaches in their natural habitat that can prove it one way or another.

Our loach system at work receives a 10% water change 3 times per day, and sometimes more often. I haven't seen one single clown loach in the many years we have been importing them, that shows black spots whilst in the shop environment. I therefore think that it could be dependent on how settled they feel in their environment (long term) and what their mood is as to whether these are displayed or not.

Emma

[stoney7713]

Thanks for the link Emma, that explains everything, little that I didn't find that page. I was just a little concerned because the spots were not there when I got them.

Also I really liked the pics

Back to the "freckles" ....

Wish I had some info to help

[mikev]

If this is true, something possibly worth trying: put new water in slowly.

I noticed that fast water changes are not liked by the barbs (Odessas, the quality of their color seems to depend a lot on conditions). So when changing the water in their tank, I'll put the new water over a couple of hours: a two bucket change, put in half a bucket every half-hour, a bit like acclimating. While I have no evidence that loaches care about fast changes, I err in this directions with other tanks too, trying to do something else between adding new buckets.

Although our daily water changes are considered 'large' they are not really, as they are only approx 10% of the tank volume.

Yes, I understand this. My water changes are not too large either: usually 5g on a 29g tank. However, the way I put water in had an impact on the fish color.
Odessa is a strange barb which does not always develop good colors, in fact it almost never does it in the store tanks. This is not connected to health or behavior, I think, but the appearance difference is quite dramatic. So I found two factors that seem to improve color: lower temp and slower water changes. I have to assume that fast water changes somehow irritate at least this fish, maybe they irritate other too? (this is all under the assumption that chefkeith is correct about "High Water Turnover Rate" -- a long shot already).
Incidentally, what about the water temp, and other parameters?
You keep yours at above 80F, right? What about chefkeith?

[chefkeith]

Hi all, here's a little update-
All the black freckles that were on my clown loaches went away after about 2 weeks in quarantine*. I still have them in quarantine though. Earlier this week though I did about a 50% water change in that tank, then the next day I noticed that a few tiny black spots were cropping up on some of the clowns.


This is very interesting, but I still have no conclusions yet because meanwhile in my other tanks, I haven't been doing any water changes, but my clowns still have some black freckles. I'm starting to think that the spots are part of the inner slime coat and are not a scale or skin pigmentation.

*The freckles or spots will completely go away easily in a prolonged salt bath. 2 weeks, with 1-2 tsp of salt per gallon of water. I know, I know (I can hear some people mentally scolding me) that loaches are sensitive to salt, but salt does help clean the slime coat and stimulate new slime coat growth.

Here's a pic of one of my clowns in quarantine from Sept. 5th-


I'll be doing another large water change Tonight, I'll try to take some more pics Tomorrow to see if some new black freckles appear.

[chefkeith]

I did another big water change, then waited an hour, and now I just took about 100 pictures. I don't see any new spots, but it's hard to tell because I can't get a good view from the top.

Here's a side by side comparison pic of the same clown loach from Today and from Aug 20 (before quarantine). You can see that most, if not all the spots are gone now.



Stage 2 of the experiment begins now.
I shut down all my water-bridges and I broke down the 85g tank and changed the substrate to sand. To my pleasant surprize I found a few Boesemani Fry in that tank before it got completely emptied. I also found about 8 more fry in the 95g tank. I guess the lack of water changes in my main tanks didn't keep the rainbowfish from spawning again.

I'm going to try to put the rest of the clowns that I didn't quarantine (about 20- 2" clowns and 2- 5" clowns) from my main tanks in this 85g tank with the new sand so I can observe the clowns in a tank with some different water conditions. I'm not sure exactly what I'd do yet. Catching the clowns in my 190g planted tank and moving them to this tank will be a huge task itself. It might take a few days.......

[chefkeith]

After thinking about it for alittle while I think I'm going to open up a water-bridge or 2 so that some of the clowns will swim back over to the 85g tank. I hope this works, as it beats trying to catch them.

[Mark Janssen]

mine are perfect rounds of dots and mostly in de dark stripes en fins.

and larger than i can see on these pictures.

i use sand on the bottem.
water conditions are ok
ph6.5
nitriets 0
nitrate 10
kh 4
gh 4

my kubotai don't have them and my frenatus either.
it's just on the 2 clowns. (2 out of 6 so far)