Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules...

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agathokles
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Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules...

Post by agathokles » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:13 pm

... re best practices for keeping Clown Loaches. I'm new to this Forum, so be gentle.

I've had three Clowns for about 20 years. I started with four, but one died many years ago. The remaining three are seemingly happy and healthy -- gregarious, never fighting amongst themselves. But here's the thing. The suggestions for keeping Clowns call for large (ca. 75-gal) tanks, and say that the fish get 10 inches long and will be stressed if excessively confined.

My 20-yo Clowns have been kept the whole time in a 30-gal tank; and they are ca. 5 inches in length. They swim. They play. They have good color and skin.

Should I be up-sizing my tank? Or should I figure "if it isn't broke, don't fix it"?

== Jim

Kush
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by Kush » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:45 pm

Should I be up-sizing my tank?
Yes, if you want what's best for them.
If sucess or failure of this planet and of human beings depended on how I am and what I do. How would I be? What would I do?

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chefkeith
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by chefkeith » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:47 pm

You are probably doing many things perfect, unknowingly, also.

20+ years is quite an achievement. Congrats!

Loaches4Life
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by Loaches4Life » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:20 pm

after 20 years and only being 5" it isnt going to matter if you upgrade the tank now. Too late. clowns should never be in a 30gal long term :?

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redshark1
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by redshark1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:27 pm

Well of course 30g would never be recommended these days, but I was actually recommended this size before I decided on 90g myself (and even this is smaller than optimum).

I say congratulations! Because keeping fish to 20 years old is a rare and special achievement.

How many millions have died in aquaria before reaching even their first birthday in captivity? (20 million Clown Loaches are exported from Indonesia every year.)

So well done because you have certainly worked hard and given good care to get this far.

Enjoy your loaches. I hope we can have a celebration when mine get that far.
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

agathokles
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by agathokles » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:05 pm

I'll add some details, for those who might be interested. My (apparently too small, 30-US-gal ) tank has both an under-gravel filtration system and a Whisper HOB-type filter. Each is supposedly sufficient by itself, so the water is quite clean. I change out about 30% of the water ca. monthly. Our tap water is moderately hard, mostly with what's called "carbonate-hardness" (i.e., calcium and magnesium associated with carbonates).

I have quite a few plastic plants in the tank, plus a molded-resin, hollow "tree trunk," but the Clowns' favorite haunt is a rock cave I assembled from two smooth, river stones, topped with a flat rock "roof." When not swimming around in play or feeding, the loaches tend to stay in their cave, in a tight little pile of loaches. The powerhead associated with the under-gravel filtration system puts out a fairly brisk flow across the length of the upper portion of the tank. Additionally, there is the flow from the Whisper HOB filter across the width of the top of the tank. Water temperature is 76 deg F (though it gets near 80 in summer). I have a day-light fluorescent tube in the tank hood, and it's on from about 3pm to 11pm daily.

I feed them twice a day: Usually shrimp pellets at 8AM and multi-colored flake-food at 6PM. However, I occasionally give other commercial foods. They seem to know on their own when it's feeding time and will wait near the spot where I add their food. They'll suck a shrimp pellet up to their mouth and thus "carry" it back to the cave to eat. One usually waits in the cave and is served such food by one of the others. I kid you not! They're a marvel of sociability. I recall that when the fourth Clown was sick (and eventually died), the other Clowns hovered over it, seeming to protect it from harassment by other species in the tank at that time.

== Jim

Loaches4Life
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by Loaches4Life » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:33 am

FYI under gravel filters are junk. put it this way. would you want the poop in the tank under the gravel or out of the tank and removed?? Its a poop factory

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redshark1
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by redshark1 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:34 pm

I would respectfully disagree.

My undergravel filters have served me well and are at least adequate (no disease or problems in 17 years of use).

They are vacuumed weekly. This is how I remove fish wastes from the aquarium. The water is clear and Nitrates are 5ppm.

If the "poop" is in the canister, it is still technically in the aquarium.
Last edited by redshark1 on Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

Diana
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by Diana » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:03 pm

UGFs are not 'poop factories'.

When well maintained they can harbor a large population of nitrifying bacteria so the ammonia produced by fish is rapidly turned into nitrite then nitrate. They are generally not disturbed by such cleaning, so the mechanical filter (the Whisper HOB in this case) can be cleaned with less regard for conserving the nitrifying bacteria.

Even the term 'nitrate factory' has been applied to them. My answer is... well, do you want the ammonia to remain in the form of ammonia? Better it is turned into nitrate! (Then do enough water changes to keep the NO3 under 20 ppm)
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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chefkeith
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by chefkeith » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:28 am

After about 20 years , that UGF has a well evolved colony of microbial life. It will do more than just consume ammonia. It will decomp just about anything, probably even has enough anaerobic bacteria to keep the nitrates under control.

Keys for keeping your loaches for 20+ years:

A super duper mature filter
Steady water mineralization (solid KH and GH)
Moderately sized (30%) water changes
Consistency

agathokles
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by agathokles » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:45 pm

I agree with statements in support of the UG filter. As I posted earlier, I use this in conjunction with a HOB Whisper filter.

By profession, I'm an environmental engineering professor at a university in the USA. My specialty is biological treatment systems. A mature UG filter will have sufficient biofloc in it that, even though aerated water is cycling through it, there will be anoxic environments in the core of the floc particles, facilitating denitrification of nitrate: NO3- ----> N2. Aerobic microbial activity will occur on the outside of the floc (NH4+ ---> NO2- ---> NO3-), and anoxic microbial activity will occur within the floc. When mature, it's not necessarily a "nitrate-generator." And, even if it were, what system isn't?

At every water change, I 'vacuum' the gravel in the bottom of the bed, removing a great deal of the accumulated solids, but still allowing significant biofloc to be left behind. My tank has a glass bottom and it sits on an open frame, so that I can actually see what's beneath the slotted, plastic support (between the glass and the gravel above). It might surprise you to learn that there's not all that much accumulated there. Most of the bottom of the slotted plastic support is visible. And that's after 20 years of operation! Most of the biofloc is in the gravel, and it gets occasional, partial removal.

Clearly, I must have been doing SOMETHING right, if my Clowns have reached 20 years of age.

== Jim

glenna
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by glenna » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:40 pm

I learn SO MUCH on this forum!
Thanks for this discussion. As someone relatively new to the hobby I had pretty much written off under gravel filters as an outdated technology. I use a number of different kinds of filters, but not that type.
...interesting!
Also, I appreciate the comment on nitrate reduction by anaerobic bacteria. I recently saw an ad for a "nitrate reducer" which looked like a canister filter and touted the ability of the bacteria to get rid of nitrates. I thought it must be a gimic and that the only way to get rid of nitrates was by copious water changing. I will have to some research into this topic if I ever get any spare time from all those water changes :lol:
I only pray I will not do something horrible (unknowingly, of course) and out of ignorance and end up with a disaster!

What an awesome thing to have 20+ year old loaches.... like kids who NEVER go off to college!
glenna

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Crissyloach
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by Crissyloach » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:18 pm

:lol:

I definitely agree with the points made. I have a tank with an UGF filter, combined with a small stingray filter- one of my cleanest tanks. I can also see the bottom of this one. It is pretty clean- never had any problems with this tank.
Image

Current betta count...Too many. :P

agathokles
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Re: Unknowingly, I seem to have violated most of the rules..

Post by agathokles » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:23 am

to glenna: There is still a good reason for water changes. Salts will otherwise accumulate. With each feeding, you're added compounds that will contribute to salinity in the tank. Evaporation will, too -- unless you make up for the evaporative loss via addition of distilled water. The evaporative loss is pure water, and most of us replace that loss with tap water. Thus, the salinity increases over time.

My hunch is that the recommendation against UGFs is because they require no replacement supplies (i.e., filter media). Manufacturers can't make much money from them.

As posted earlier, I use both a HOB and UGF. It think they complement each other well. The UGF is probably a better biofilter than is the HOB variety, but the HOB filter does a good job of removing colloidal particles (especially as the HOB fills up, it becomes a better filter). Together, they provide some redundancy, too -- a factor that makes me rest easily. And since my UGF uses a powerhead for water movement, I've got some desirable water flow in my tank contributed from both filter-types.

== Jim

agathokles
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Here's video

Post by agathokles » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:29 pm

Here's a video of my Clown Loaches. In the early portion, it looks like a "pose-down" (one of those exhibitions that happens at body-building competitions). You'll see one my three, 20-yo Clowns "posing" on the top of a rock cave, then it turns around so you can see its other side. Then another of my 20-yo Clowns has to get into the act. In the last portion of this video (at about 1:30) you can see all of the Clowns -- three 20-yo Clowns on the left, and two smaller, newer ones on the right.

I'm providing the same video in two formats:

As .mp4
http://www.ithacoin.com/MVI_0685.mp4

As .wmv
http://www.ithacoin.com/MVI_0685.WMV

== Jim

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