When a bigger tank is not possible

[loachlover77]

EmilyMarie85: As you may know, clown loaches grow very slowly and can be kept in a 55 gallon tank for about years or a little less.

Everyone: I feel that you are indicating that clown loaches grow quickly in a 55 gallon tank. These clowns that I have, have been in the tank since 2008. I will be saving money to get another tank, I want a 125 or 250 gallon tank so that I can have more than 5 clown loaches. I want at least 10 clown loaches or 15 clown loaches. I know that they get huge and can outgrow the tank they are in. I have a few years before I have to get another tank, I will be saving up for another tank.

[ClownLoachSharky]

good on ya

[EmilyMarie85]

loachlover77: As you may know, clown loaches spurt growth to 4"-5" and THEN they grow very slowly.

You came to this forum requesting help if I remember correctly? You had some sick clown loaches with ich and fungus (your version of fine in a 55g?). After you treated for those the loach started hanging out at the surface, not really a common behavior for clown loaches and you quickly deduced that something was wrong. So, you came here and made a thread http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23011

Based on that thread we learned that:
1. You have 3 clown loaches in a 55g tank ranging from 4"-7"
2. You are in-experienced enough to state that you have 0 Nitrates in a non-planted aquarium (in an over-stocked tank no-less)
3. You have 2 HOB filters running this tank, neither of which puts off the current that clown loaches so enjoy
4. You keep your tank at 86 degrees
5. You only do water changes once every 2 weeks and even then, you only do 25%
6. You have 3 clown loaches... and only 3....

So, lets compare that information with the Clown Loach guide ( http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus ) the powers-that-be of this forum put together, here are some quotes:

"Care: This is a wonderful loach, but too large for most hobbyist aquariums. (1) Allowed a minimum of 75 gallons or more, young Clown Loaches thrive in groups. (3) They require large turnover, efficient filtration systems and current supplied by additional power-heads, (5) frequent water-changes and great attention to cleanliness in the aquarium.

(4) Temperature: 78ºF to 83ºF (25-30)°C

They must be kept in groups. (6) The absolute minimum recommendation is 5, but basically the more the merrier."

So,
1. You keep your clowns in a 55g tank, the MINIMUM suggested is 75
2. Diana explained why you don't have 0 Nitrates on your help thread, so I won't drag you over it again
3. You are using HOBs, which provide 0 current
4. Your tank temp is 86, highest suggested is 83
5. You do 1 25% WC every 2 weeks, suggested maintenance is weekly WC's
6. You have 3 clown loaches, the MINIMUM suggested group is 5

And that's just the basic care stuff.... all that coupled with your golden-globe worthy quote "you can grow a clown loach out to 1/2 the length of it's tank size before you upgrade the tank". I conclude you are a beginner or you are just plain ignorant and irresponsible with your fish. Either way, it is not a good situation for your clowns.

No one is suggesting that "clowns grow quickly in a 55g tank". Sorry but, you need to get past the size thing here. It is not JUST size - it is also the fish's behavior. They are bottom dwellers, they come from rivers = long foot print tanks with a current. It is also immune systems/make-up of the species you keep = they are sensitive to water conditions (which is why you had ich and fungus). I could keep going on this, but I am hoping you get the idea?

Oh, and - you probably do have an oxygen deficiency in your aquarium. High temp., no current + minimal surface agitation = lack of oxygen. Add an air stone or sponge filter, if you can.


On a side note, I am sorry if that came across as harsh - I really am just trying to help you and your clowns. Everyone makes mistakes in fish keeping - totally normal. Learning from those mistakes and gaining more knowledge is the difference between a beginner and a seasoned fish keeper.

[ClownLoachSharky]

you wouldnt have that problem with a v8.

[loachlover77]

loachlover77: As you may know, clown loaches spurt growth to 4"-5" and THEN they grow very slowly.

You came to this forum requesting help if I remember correctly? You had some sick clown loaches with ich and fungus (your version of fine in a 55g?). After you treated for those the loach started hanging out at the surface, not really a common behavior for clown loaches and you quickly deduced that something was wrong. So, you came here and made a thread http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23011

Based on that thread we learned that:
1. You have 3 clown loaches in a 55g tank ranging from 4"-7"
2. You are in-experienced enough to state that you have 0 Nitrates in a non-planted aquarium (in an over-stocked tank no-less)
3. You have 2 HOB filters running this tank, neither of which puts off the current that clown loaches so enjoy
4. You keep your tank at 86 degrees
5. You only do water changes once every 2 weeks and even then, you only do 25%
6. You have 3 clown loaches... and only 3....

So, lets compare that information with the Clown Loach guide ( http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus ) the powers-that-be of this forum put together, here are some quotes:

"Care: This is a wonderful loach, but too large for most hobbyist aquariums. (1) Allowed a minimum of 75 gallons or more, young Clown Loaches thrive in groups. (3) They require large turnover, efficient filtration systems and current supplied by additional power-heads, (5) frequent water-changes and great attention to cleanliness in the aquarium.

(4) Temperature: 78ºF to 83ºF (25-30)°C

They must be kept in groups. (6) The absolute minimum recommendation is 5, but basically the more the merrier."

So,
1. You keep your clowns in a 55g tank, the MINIMUM suggested is 75
2. Diana explained why you don't have 0 Nitrates on your help thread, so I won't drag you over it again
3. You are using HOBs, which provide 0 current
4. Your tank temp is 86, highest suggested is 83
5. You do 1 25% WC every 2 weeks, suggested maintenance is weekly WC's
6. You have 3 clown loaches, the MINIMUM suggested group is 5

And that's just the basic care stuff.... all that coupled with your golden-globe worthy quote "you can grow a clown loach out to 1/2 the length of it's tank size before you upgrade the tank". I conclude you are a beginner or you are just plain ignorant and irresponsible with your fish. Either way, it is not a good situation for your clowns.

No one is suggesting that "clowns grow quickly in a 55g tank". Sorry but, you need to get past the size thing here. It is not JUST size - it is also the fish's behavior. They are bottom dwellers, they come from rivers = long foot print tanks with a current. It is also immune systems/make-up of the species you keep = they are sensitive to water conditions (which is why you had ich and fungus). I could keep going on this, but I am hoping you get the idea?

Oh, and - you probably do have an oxygen deficiency in your aquarium. High temp., no current + minimal surface agitation = lack of oxygen. Add an air stone or sponge filter, if you can.


On a side note, I am sorry if that came across as harsh - I really am just trying to help you and your clowns. Everyone makes mistakes in fish keeping - totally normal. Learning from those mistakes and gaining more knowledge is the difference between a beginner and a seasoned fish keeper.

The reason for the high temp in the tank is I am preventing them from getting ich.

I might have oxygen deficiency, I have to get a test kit that will test for it. I will be saving for a bigger tank, because I want more clown loaches. I want to get a 250 gallon because I want 10 or more clown loaches.

I could add an air stone to see if that will help my biggest clown loach and see if she will be more at the bottom than about 50% on the bottom and 50% on the top. I have fed her peas to see if she would get better and she did, so I believe that she has swim bladder issue. Because she is swimming oddly ocassionly. It looks like she relaxes and floats around then uprights herself. I will get some more peas this Saturday. What other veggies can clown loaches have?

[mattyd]

If there is no more sign of ich, and there hasn't been any sign for a week, then drop the temperature down. The ich only affects the fish when the fish are not that healthy for starters. If you have healthy fish then they often wont even get the disease, so it isn't a problem. To make your fish healthier, put in an air stone or two. They'll play in the bubbles if you don't have a power head in the tank making a good current. Drop the temperature, and do more frequent water changes. Don't introduce any new fish for a while and you'll find that your clown loaches will get compeletly healthy again. I've got over 30 clown loaches - and about 45 other loaches, and I don't think I have ever had ich. However, I have accidently killed loaches in the past by having the water too hot (30degrees C - I accidently bumped the heater dial with my arm and it turned the temp up without me noticing), and by not having enough water movement/air stones to introduce oxygen into the tank. I have also accidently killed loaches by letting the water get too poisonous with nitrates, nitrites and amonia - which is easily quickly fixed by doing a water change. The amonia spike happened when I added 7 clown loaches to a 6ft tank that had a fully cycled large FX5 filter that was only supporting 10 smaller clown loaches.... so even though I had a massive filter and a lot of water in the tank, the bacterial colony that existed was only feeding on the waste of the previous number of fish. The 7 new fish were larger than my existing fish, so their waste would have doubled what the tank normally handled. I didn't change the water when I added the new fish, and 2 days later the amonia spike was massive. A strick reigeem of water changes for the next few weeks fixed that problem for good.

If you are really attached to your larger loaches and a bigger tank isn't possible in your house, maybe consider moving to a new place where you could get a larger tank. You'll often find second hand breeder tanks that are scratched up but will give your fish more space to swim. Locally to me there was a scratched up 8ft tank that was available last week for just $100 Australian Dollars. Second hand 6ft tanks are readily available in that price range as well.

If you are not that attached to those particular fish, then try and find a fish keeper who you can sell the larger ones to (who'll house them in a bigger tank), and go and buy some healthy smaller loaches to replace them. That way you'll have a smaller fish, and hopefully you'll be able to buy more of them to keep each other company.

Matt

[EmilyMarie85]

The high temp. is good, when fish have ich and you are trying to cure it. Keeping the tank at a higher temp. won't prevent fish from getting ich. Raising the temp. only speeds up the life cycle of ich. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com ... m_Ich.html <-- pretty good read on ich. Basically, higher temp= faster ich life cycle = the faster ich gets to a point in it's life cycle that it can be killed.

Don't waste money on an oxygen deficiency test. Just add more surface agitation or some type of air-driven filter. The first test kit you need to buy is an API test kit. You need to be able to test ammonia, nirtite, nitrate and pH at least.

A 250g tank is good (300g would be better) - but remember, foot print is important. Ex: a 240L would be better than a 250g.

Veggies - clowns will eat a wide variety. Cucumber, zuchinni, broccoli, peas, watermelon, bananas, squash -- I would imagine the watermelon and bananas would be messy, so I have never tried them. I can't get mine to eat zuchinni, but they devour cucumber. Start trying different things until you find something they like - one of the reasons we love clown loaches is because of their unique personalities - what mine love yours might hate, and vice versa.

If you wanted to post some pics of your setup and clown loaches (especially the one having the most issues)... it would help people to understand the situation better.

[ClownLoachSharky]

rather than getin those useles kits just get a wavemaker off ebay for 10 bucks

[loachlover77]

Thank you EmilyMarie85.

I will be lowering the temp as soon as Baby Girl gets over the swim bladder issue. Or should I do it now and see what she does? But I will up the temp if I see any sign of ich and will do water changes as well.

As soon as I get a chance I will put the pics that are on my cell phone onto my computer and get a photobucket account and put some pics up of her.

Baby Girl is what I have named my biggest clown loach.

I wanted to get a general idea of what veggies clown loaches can have, I will be trying different ones to see what they will eat, but I also want to be safe as I don't want to give them something that is not okay for them.

[mattyd]

Sharky,, when you say the below

rather than getin those useles kits just get a wavemaker off ebay for 10 bucks

.... are you referring to the API Test Kits for Ammonia, nitrite and Nitrate that EmilyMarie has recommended? If you are suggesting that the kit is useless, then you are very wrong. Every fish keeper should have those kits as they are vital in determining water quality. Those wavemakers are only good for water movement. If you put them down low in the tank then they wont even create any surface disturbance. The water needs to be moving at the surface for oxygen/co2 to be exchanged with the air. A wavemaker is great down low for any loach to play in the flow of the water, but you will *still* need the water surface to be moving a lot to ensure that the water is well oxygenated. You can disturb the water surface with another wavemaker up top, or an airstone where the bubbles are popping on the surface, or a spray bar from a filter. Microbubbles in the tank probably won't put as much oxygen into the water as a medium amount of surface disturbance would give.

For an incredibly aerated tank, you can always have a airstone positioned underneath two wavemakers that are vertically stacked on top of each other -- one at the bottom above the substrate, one at the top a few inches below the water surface. Some of the bubbles will get drawn into the lower wavemaker and get popped into microbubbles and get blown across the tank, some of them bubbles will just get spat out, and some will float to the wavemaker up above where the same should happen. And then a bunch of the bubbles will pop at the surface in different places, all of which will let the water mix with fresh oxygen. I do something similar to this for my hillstream loach tank, except I position my wavemaker underneath the output of the HOB filter.

Matt

[ClownLoachSharky]

no i mean the oxygen kits.

[ClownLoachSharky]

Sharky,, when you say the below

rather than getin those useles kits just get a wavemaker off ebay for 10 bucks

.... are you referring to the API Test Kits for Ammonia, nitrite and Nitrate that EmilyMarie has recommended? If you are suggesting that the kit is useless, then you are very wrong. Every fish keeper should have those kits as they are vital in determining water quality. Those wavemakers are only good for water movement. If you put them down low in the tank then they wont even create any surface disturbance. The water needs to be moving at the surface for oxygen/co2 to be exchanged with the air. A wavemaker is great down low for any loach to play in the flow of the water, but you will *still* need the water surface to be moving a lot to ensure that the water is well oxygenated. You can disturb the water surface with another wavemaker up top, or an airstone where the bubbles are popping on the surface, or a spray bar from a filter. Microbubbles in the tank probably won't put as much oxygen into the water as a medium amount of surface disturbance would give.

For an incredibly aerated tank, you can always have a airstone positioned underneath two wavemakers that are vertically stacked on top of each other -- one at the bottom above the substrate, one at the top a few inches below the water surface. Some of the bubbles will get drawn into the lower wavemaker and get popped into microbubbles and get blown across the tank, some of them bubbles will just get spat out, and some will float to the wavemaker up above where the same should
happen. And then a bunch of the bubbles will pop at the surface in different places, all of which will let the water mix with
fresh oxygen. I do something similar to this for my hillstream loach tank, except I position my wavemaker underneath the output of the HOB filter.

Matt

Tjose kits arent useless i meant dissolved oxygen kits or whatever

[EmilyMarie85]

Thank you EmilyMarie85.

I will be lowering the temp as soon as Baby Girl gets over the swim bladder issue. Or should I do it now and see what she does? But I will up the temp if I see any sign of ich and will do water changes as well.

As soon as I get a chance I will put the pics that are on my cell phone onto my computer and get a photobucket account and put some pics up of her.

Baby Girl is what I have named my biggest clown loach.

I wanted to get a general idea of what veggies clown loaches can have, I will be trying different ones to see what they will eat, but I also want to be safe as I don't want to give them something that is not okay for them.

Temp - Lower the temp SLOWLY - bring it down to 84, leave it there for a day or so, then drop it down to 80-82. If you see the ich come back you have other problems, so don't JUST raise the temp. back to 86. The temp. being that high is actually bad for your fish. That is why people suggest raising it no higher than 86, its the max of what the fish can tolerate.

Veggies - everything I listed is safe, and I am sure there are more. Do a search on this site, there is really good information here.

Best of luck.

[ClownLoachSharky]

I think zuccinni is best but that was for my bristie so its a d ifferent story but broccolli is good.

[loachlover77]

Thank you EmilyMarie85. I will do that with the temp. Baby Girl is improving, she is a fighter that is for sure. I just hope that she keeps improving.

I have tried to do a search on the veggies that they can have and I don't get anywhere.