looking for info on barbatula barbatula

[eazy]

Hi,

This is my first post here and english is not my first language so forgive me if its not perfectly understandable.

I live in the netherlands and have a native/inland cold water tank, stocked with some home bred f1 Gasterosteus aculeatus juveniles and 5 wild caught barbatula barbatula, all from the stream next door.
And some snails and fresh water schrimps etc. etc.

Now what I am looking for is info on barbatula barbatula.
As much as possible

The biggest question i cant find an awnser to is whats a good groupsize and sexratio for the barbatula in my tank.
I was thinking about 1 male on 2 females or something in that order, but cannot find any confirmation on this.
Also i am not sure how big the group schould be in order to let them feel good and save.
Right now i have a group of 5 with probally more female then male and it looks quit good, altho at times there is al lot of pushing and chasing going on.
I am not sure if this is just playing or its a form of agression or maybe even maiting behavior?

Other questions are: how to determin the sex / gender?
I know females are normaly bigger and have rounder pectorial fins, and the males have the more pointing/triangular pectorial fins with a slightly thickened second ray in the pectorial fin, right?
Are there any more pointers to determin if its a male or female?

There is almost no in depth information in my language on this fish.
I can find some in english, but not that much in depth information.
Also i did find some in swedish and norwegian info, but internet translation is not good enough for me to fully understand it.

So if anybody here have some links to some good info on barbatula i will be very happy if you share it with me.
I doesnt matter what kind of information, i am very interested in all i can learn on this stunning creature

Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Erik.

[LeStat]

Ah, I remember catching these in the local stream as a boy. I haven't seen one for years!!! I do remember the stream being very shallow, probably only six inches deep & quite fast moving. The bigger one's were often found alone under large rocks, only the smaller one's would group together.

Have you read this page?

http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ba ... -barbatula

[bookpage]

Welcome to the forum, Erik.

This page might be of some help: http://www.loaches.com/species-index/ba ... -barbatula

Also, do a search for barbatula barbatula on YOUTUBE.com.

Rayburn

[eazy]

Thanks for your reply's guys.

I also catch these guys in very shallow streams, with quite a strong current.
Maybe there was 30 centimeters of waterdepth there, and something like 2 meters wide.
Mainly sandfloor with some small pebbles/rocks and lots of plants in where they are hiding.

I am 32 years old now, but i also feel a little bit like a little boy again when i go out with my net, rainboots and bucket, try to catch them.
Its a good feeling.

I already spotted the article your referring to.
Maybe i am missing something there, but i didnt see anything about groupsize and/or sexratio in that article.

Also i think i did see most of the youtube movies on barbatula. But i must admit, not all of them with my full attention.
Indeed its a good idea to watch them again, and also read the comments on that movies.
Maybe there i can find some more infomation.

Thanks for the tips.
Its being appreciated.

[bookpage]

The article says:

Breeding: None reported in aquarium. Spawns once a year in low productivity streams, but exhibits multiple spawning within a season in high productivity environments. Eggs are a dull white and layed among stones and water plants.

[eazy]

Thanks for your reply.

At first I was a bit cunfused by your reply and I didnt see the relation between my nr1 question and your quote from that article, but after some time I started thinking that we are dealing with the languagebarrier in action.

I think i have used a word that is no proper english.
That word is: "sexratio"

What i ment by that is the ratio between males and females within the group.
So, the male-female ratio. Maybe thats a better word for it.

At first i didnt understand why you where replying with that quote from the article on barbatula barbatula, but now i think you guys thougt i was asking questions about the sexual behavior and/or maiting behavior.
But thats not the case.
Its just that i didnt knew the right word for what i wanted to ask, i think.

Am i right? Is this the confusion?
Or did you had other reasons to qoute that article?

So, what i was trying to ask, and what i would like to know is:
If i have a group of lets say 5, then how many males and how many females should be in that group in order to let them feel fine?
Or in any groupsize, what should be the ratio between males and females?
And what would be the minimun and/or maximun groupsize for this fish?
I think you should not keep them just single, or in one pair, but in a group.
They look like they are quite social creatures?
But how big should that group be?

That information i cannot find in the article on barbatula barbatula.



Another thing is:
With that qoute you posted an other question came to my mind.
In that quote they are talking about: " low productivity streams, and high productivity enviroment ( by enviroment they also mean streams?)"

What does that mean?

What factors determin if its a "low productivity stream"or a "high productivity enviroment" ?


I hope that i am a bit more clear now.

Thanks.

Regards,
Erik.

[bookpage]

Thanks for your reply.

What i ment by that is the ratio between males and females within the group.
So, the male-female ratio. Maybe thats a better word for it.

Another thing is:
With that qoute you posted an other question came to my mind.
In that quote they are talking about: " low productivity streams, and high productivity enviroment ( by enviroment they also mean streams?)"
What does that mean?
What factors determin if its a "low productivity stream"or a "high productivity enviroment" ?

Erik.

"Breeding: None reported in aquarium"
"Sexual Dimorphism: Females are generally larger with a rounder abdomen."

If this fish has not been report having been bred in the home aquarium and sex is hard to determine, sex ratio would be rather hard to accomplish. IMHO. The article does not say, but 'most' loaches like to be in groups.

The reason I think that there is not much on this fish is because not many are kept in aquariums.

It says in NOTES: Not really suitable as an aquarium inhabitant in a domestic situation because of low temperature requirements.

Have no idea about your second question. Maybe someone else can give some answers to both questions.

Rayburn

[Thomas]

In german books about cold water fishes you can read that breeding of barbatula in aquariums is possible. Of course they need an overwintering. There are also pictures of spawning Barbatula.

If you want to breed them, you need a group with both gender. I bet there aren't an exact sex ratio which certainly works. Don't make it complicated as needful. You need a good environment for the loaches, a good overwintering and after that slowly rising temperatures. And if you offer this all to your stone loches - then it could be that they do ... nothing. But maybe you have luck, as I wrote on top, it could work. I have had never luck with them.

Here are some pics of my stone loaches which I've kept some years ago. All from trade, in germany it isn't allowed to catch Barbatula from the wild. Maybe you like them.








Cheers,
Thomas

[eazy]

Both of you, thanks for your reply.

Those are really nice pictures!

It is not my main target to breed them, altho it would be really nice if they do.
But if they do, i dont think it wil be this year, maybe next year if i am lucky.

My tank is 110x55x50 cm (300liters) and my biological filter is 120x40x40 and contains around 100 liters of water. the rest is filtermedia.
The tank is inside the house and is isolated om all sides exept for the front window, and the biological filter is outside the house.
Therefore the temperature is almost the same as the seasonal temperature outside.

I did multiple measurements on in-house temp. outside temp. water temp at home, and did the same on the location (stream) where i catch them.
So i am sure the temeratures in my tank are almost identical to the temperatures from that stream, all year round.
The highest temp this year was 24,7 c. and the lowest was 5,6 c.

The fluoresent lights are dimmable and are controlled by a smal solarpanel that provides the 0 to 10 Volt control current for the fluoresent ballast.
Therefore the light hours are exactly the same as the outside season all year round.

The water flowrate is 2000 liters/hour from the biological filter pump, and an extra 1200 liters/hour from a extra filter/pump.
With a total of 3200 liters/hour that makes quite a decent flow/current in my tank.

The waterrefreshing runs 24/7 with a total of 50% per week. (200 liters per week)

Ph is the same as in the stream.
Kh and Gh are slightly lower then in the stream.

So the conditions are quite good i hope.
Maybe next year when the watertemperature starts rising again i have the luck of watching them spawning.

As for the groupsize and male-female ratio, i think i just stay with the group i have now.
5 in total, and i am allmost sure they are 3 females and 2 males.

Probally i will post some pictures and/or video's also some day.


In the netherlands is wasnt allowed to catch Barbatula from the wild, until 2010.
In 2010 they chanced the laws for this species.

Do you have some titles of those books you are talking about?
Maybe i can find it somewhere second hand.


Thanks again.

Regards,
Eazy.

[Thomas]

Dieter Tönsmeier, Einheimische Fische im Aquarium, Ulmer Verlag (Not easy to get, at amazon for a horrible price: http://www.amazon.de/Einheimische-Fisch ... 888&sr=8-1)
Andreas Vilcinskas, Ihr Hobby - Heimische Aquarienfische, Bede Verlag
Dieter Voigt, Schmerlen - Algenfresser, Flossensauger, Stachelaale, Alfred Kernen Verlag (Antiquariat, I get mine from ebay. This is the one with the spawning pics)

Cheers,
Thomas

[eazy]

Thank you very much

Here is some of my foto and video:








And some video's:

Recent video's of Gasterosteus aculeatus and Barbatula barbatula.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAD5mDTe-d8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po_q3PJY1kk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3HyNyvysic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5flsLTw4gs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXU32TbnYwY

Overview tank and technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_e7sA2Wfa0

And this are the Gasterosteus aculeatus when they were just born (4-1012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRfkmsiGE6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrALYfgA0PM

And here you see the female Gasterosteus aculeatus trying to find a partner.
She is a bit confused because she is trying to partner with an other female.
The males where allready busy with protecting their nests so they where not interested in her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ibi9FieMsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjfDBQ1JSR0

And this is my topic on a Dutch forum:
http://www.nederlandsecichlidenforum.nl ... 13&t=15588