Clown Loaches Brackish Water

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NDininno
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Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by NDininno » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:00 am

Is it possible for clown loaches to survive in brackish water? I know normal reasoning would say no, that they are sensitive to this and shouldn't be kept in it but that's not why i'm asking.

A coworker of mine goes to a gym near his house in New Jersey, and says he and a few other guys put out their poles in the water behind the gym to catch\release fish from the brackish water there. He claims to have caught clown loaches ranching from 8 - 10 inches long. I originally thought he was confusing them with another fish like perch but he described the red fins and flat bottom too well for me to dismiss it. I've asked him to get a water sample and take pictures if he sees any more of what he thinks are clown loaches. Has anyone ever heard of something like this happening?

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by DainBramage1991 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:36 am

I'd want to see the pictures.

For several reasons, it's unlikely that they are clown loaches. While it is possible that an irresponsible pet owner dumped them in that waterway, it is unlikely that they would survive for long, much less thrive, grow, and reproduce. New Jersey's waterways get much too cold for clowns (which can get stressed if kept below 76 F). Also, the brackish water would play havoc with their osmoregulatory systems, not to mention the osmotic and thermal shock involved with dumping them in the first place (which would probably kill them right away). Clowns are also somewhat delicate, and it's unlikely that they would survive in a waterway who's parasites and bacteria were completely foreign to the loaches. In other words, they have no immunity.

I suspect that your friend may be catching some other species of fish that bears a resemblance to clowns, perhaps koi or some other carp.

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:06 pm

I thought of this thread yesterday when the girl at the pet store started telling me how clown loaches where practically brackish.

When I told her that's not true she started arguing that her manager told her so.
.

I informed her that according to loaches.com the definitive loach experts that was not accurate... her argument was, "people make stuff up on the internet"

Compleatly ignoring the statment I made about how you guys where responcible for the only comprehensive loach book on the market...

It annoyed me.... mainly because its wrong and she tells people how to "care" for fish many many times a day...

The "manager" shw reffered to said that this knowledge was based on her "experience" and that she kept her salinity constantly at a near "brackish" level because otherwise they would be constantly infected with ICH

Is there anything I can do here???

I am so upset about this.

Loachloach
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:45 pm

That's odd. From what I've read they can barely tolerate salt during ich treatment so I can't imagine them being brackish. They probably will survivve for a while, a few weeks or longer, I don't even want to test to try. So if they were indeed clown loaches, maybe someone just dumped them there...irresponsibility is the biggest issue with keeping fish.
But keeping them in freshwater for good definately does not cause them to get infected with ich just like that... This sounds like a very dodgy statement. Maybe she's seen all new clown loach tanks in the shop being dosed with salt on arrival(as a preventive measure against ich and other parasites), and she wrongly assumed they are brackish fish. How long did she work there, a few months?
In the local fish shop near me the workers can't tell me the names of the fish they sell, so I'd take no notice of such a claim :D

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Well I've kept clown loaches now for about 7 years and I know what she's saying is untrue. I have in the past low dosed them with a salt container to treat ich but that has been it and it was purly out of desperation because they where dying from the ich and nothing else seemed to be working. I had one surviver from that and still have him to this day... that was when I first started keeping loaches so he's right at about 6 or 7 years old.


It upsets me because this petshop employee was telling me I should add salt to my tank. When I tried to correct her she got irritated and defencive.

I think after succesfully keeping these fish for close to a decade I might know a little something and if bothers me because if she'll argue with me about it then she'll definately confidently advise new owners to do this and IMHO its as abusive as selling them to someone with a 10 gallon tank.

I wish there was something I could do to educate them.

mehtab_gill
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by mehtab_gill » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:50 pm

Clown loaches are not true scaleless fish that most would believe would lead you to believe. They have very small scales and are only scaleless on their heads. They CAN tolerate low doses of salt, and low doses (1/2 tspn 5 gallons) can help prevent diseases. You have to remember that because it is a freshwater fish, these fish come from rivers and streams of asia, where there is still salt in them, not as much as a brackish environment, but enough that it is measurable. the salt helps prevent ich in the wild habitat. that's the reason why you see clowns develop ich when you buy them from a LFS into a freshwater aquarium without salt. they are not used to the purity and cleanliness of that kind of water. which is retrospect can cause unwanted illnesses which to the contrary most believe would not believe why or how it happened. it also untrue that clowns need very high quality of water, frequent water changes can stress clowns and go into hiding, the high water quality is only preventing diseases that would arise from low water quality WITHOUT salt. this is another reason why clowns are so hard to keep. salt is benefecial to them and most local LFS still insist using salt. but to say they can survive in a brackish environment is completely wrong. here is a more detailed website on clown loaches that will clear many myths.

edit: fixed link

http://www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/art ... 0loach.htm

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by DainBramage1991 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:30 pm

Good article.

You'll find that most serious loach keepers are aware that they do have scales. However, for the purposes of fish keeping we regard them as scaleless because their sensitivity to medications and toxins is similar to that of true scaleless fish.

Serious loach keepers also understand that they are sensitive to salt but not intolerant of it.

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:31 pm

DainBramage1991 wrote:Good article.

You'll find that most serious loach keepers are aware that they do have scales. However, for the purposes of fish keeping we regard them as scaleless because their sensitivity to medications and toxins is similar to that of true scaleless fish.

Serious loach keepers also understand that they are sensitive to salt but not intolerant of it.
I'm not sure who this statment was aimed at but I am aware they can tolorate it but she was saying that the manager said they where practically brackish fish and should be maintained at such.

Consider how damaging that statment is towards keeping loaches by the unknowledgable.

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DainBramage1991
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by DainBramage1991 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:00 pm

Arden wrote:I'm not sure who this statment was aimed at
It was aimed at the person who posted the article. I was simply sticking up for those of us who have done our homework and put the proper amount of effort into loach care.

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Wed May 01, 2013 5:36 pm

DainBramage1991 wrote:
Arden wrote:I'm not sure who this statment was aimed at
It was aimed at the person who posted the article. I was simply sticking up for those of us who have done our homework and put the proper amount of effort into loach care.
Oh. No worries. Just wasn't sure.

Loachloach
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Loachloach » Wed May 01, 2013 6:16 pm

You have to remember that because it is a freshwater fish, these fish come from rivers and streams of asia, where there is still salt in them, not as much as a brackish environment, but enough that it is measurable.
Is there information somewhere saying how much salt is present in their natural habitat?
For what is worth tap freshwater and freshwater tanks can contain lots of "salts" as in chlorides(not chlorines!!), but not necessarily enough to call it a brackish enviroment at all. You won't be able to breed nerite snails or amano shrimp for example. So when one talks about salt and clown loaches, it really needs to be specified how much...

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Wed May 01, 2013 7:36 pm

mehtab_gill wrote: .. the salt helps prevent ich in the wild habitat. that's the reason why y u see clowns develop ich when you buy them from a LFS into a freshwater aquarium without salt. they are not used to the purity and cleanliness of that kind of water. which is retrospect can cause unwanted illnesses which to the contrary most believe would not believe why or how it happened. it also untrue that clowns need very high quality of water, frequent water changes can stress clowns and go into hiding, the high water quality is only preventing diseases that would arise from low water quality WITHOUT salt. this is another reason why clowns are so hard to keep. salt is benefecial to them and most local LFS still insist using salt. but to say they can survive in a brackish environment is completely wrong. here is a more detailed website on clown loaches that will clear many myths.

edit: fixed link

http://www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/art ... 0loach.htm

Ok.... this is wrong.
First of all ICH is not one but a variety of parasites. The two most commonly found in aquariums happen to be
Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocaryon irritans. The former being "freshwater" ich and the latter being saltwater or "Marine" Ich.

For the sake of discussing we are talking here exclusively about Ichthyophtirius multifiliis or freshwater ich. ICH is present to some degree in all natural waters. The reason it does not effect fish to the degree it does in home aquariums is that in the wild when it reproduces it is diluted and swept away by the mass of the waters it inhabits. The salt content of these rivers is purely irrelivant. Infestations happen in home aquariums due to the very nature of our inclosed systems. when the parasite reproduces it has no where to go and simply builds in quanity and attaches itself in mass to any host it can find in order to sustain itself

Furthermore salt treatments threwout the years in aquariums have become less and less effective as the protozoa has adapted via inadiquit applications of treatment.

Petshops keep fish in large containment systems that are only visually divided but the same water circulates threwout. The turn over large quantites of infected fish week to week keeping them in a constant state of disease and stress. They utilize uv steralizers and inadiquit levels of broad spectrum medications contributing futher to the infestation and additional strength of the surviving protozoa that later become introduced to the home tank via purchases made by the consumer.

Furthermore the areas of rivers inhabited by loaches are far enough up stream from the mouth that they are in fact "fresh" water. Mineral desposits aside clown loaches are rarely if ever subjected to salt except for being housed in home aquariums that utilize it.

They are not in the least brackish by nature or design.

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Wed May 01, 2013 7:47 pm

And FYI - Clown loaches are not hard to keep. In fact they are relitively easy to keep when cared for correctly. I have kept loaches for years and in that time I have only ever had two outbreaks of ich EVER.

In both cases it was caused by purchasing fish from a petshop that I later discovered knowingly sold to me a diseased fish without informing me at the time of purchase and who only admitted to it when I confronted them later with the sick fish

Arden
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Arden » Wed May 01, 2013 7:57 pm

Loachloach wrote:
You have to remember that because it is a freshwater fish, these fish come from rivers and streams of asia, where there is still salt in them, not as much as a brackish environment, but enough that it is measurable.
Is there information somewhere saying how much salt is present in their natural habitat?
For what is worth tap freshwater and freshwater tanks can contain lots of "salts" as in chlorides(not chlorines!!), but not necessarily enough to call it a brackish enviroment at all. You won't be able to breed nerite snails or amano shrimp for example. So when one talks about salt and clown loaches, it really needs to be specified how much...
I live in an area that is both on the ocean, has a large river and is present with coastal sounds.

I can tell you because I know, as I grew up in a family of fishermen, rivers only contain brackish water at the mouth and the water becomes more diluted and fresh the further up stream you travel.

Loaches being asian or otherwise is irrelevant. The further up stream a species lives the less they are exsposed to salt. With regards to clown loaches specifically the areas in which the reside from everything I've read implies that they live nowhere near the mouths of rivers.

The OP seems to lack an understanding of how natural waters function.

Diana
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Re: Clown Loaches Brackish Water

Post by Diana » Thu May 02, 2013 1:39 am

Even waters in dry areas like the Rift Lakes of Africa are FRESH water, not brackish. They do contain measurable levels of NaCl, but at such low levels that they are still FRESH water.

To get a high enough salt level from sodium chloride you need a very low rainfall and high salt levels in the soil, plus a body of water with minimal outlet, just evaporation to concentrate the minerals. So you might have brackish water in whatever streams lead into the Salton Sea, the Dead Sea, the Great Salt Lake and similar bodies of water. Certain desert springs may be considered brackish or even saltier than the normal level of salt in the ocean. In such waters ALL the mineral levels are very high. GH, KH, TDS all test way up on the charts, or even off the charts of the hobby level test kits.

Fresh water streams and rivers in any of the world's rain forests, both tropical and temperate, are never brackish.
a) there is so much rain that any salts in the soil have long since been dissolved and carried downstream. Salt very easily dissolves in water. Minerals are harder to dissolve, but they do, and have also been flushed downstream over the years.
b) If a new salt deposit opens up in one of these areas (maybe a landslide) there is so much rain that the salt will be highly diluted. Similarly, any mineral deposits that appear will also get washed into the river with so much water that the water will still be quite soft.
c) the constant flow of water through such areas is always diluting all the minerals that might be in that water. The water is very soft, very low TDS, not just low NaCl. ALL the minerals are in short supply in this water.
d) A lot of the rain that falls over the rain forest actually lands on the fallen leaves, plants, and the rivers themselves, never even touching actual soil, so there are no minerals or salts to be dissolved.

Rain forests exist on all the tropical and temperate continents, and many of the islands.

As stated above, brackish water is by far most common near the mouths of rivers as they enter the ocean. The daily tides bring saltier ocean water up and down in the mouth of the river, and the river is bringing fresh water with a certain mineral and salt level to the ocean. As these mix, you get brackish water.
If the river was flowing through a desert, minimal rain, then each of the conditions a, b, c and d are the opposite, and the small amount of rain will dissolve the salts and minerals, and at some point the water in these waters may be salty enough to be considered brackish. Usually this is a conditions associated with a lake that has no exit, or stagnant water in rivers that are drying up, and the only way the water leaves is to evaporate, leaving the minerals and salt behind to build up.
The reason the Rift Lakes are still FRESH water (though high in minerals) is because they do have outlets. There are rivers running away from them, carrying some of the minerals and salts away.

The waters that all Loaches are found in are all FRESH water, and usually fairly soft water. While there might be testable levels of Na or Cl, these are so low it takes laboratory grade testing equipment to find it. This is absolutely NOT brackish water.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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