Caring for 5 SUPER TINY Clowns - HELP!

[redshark1]

One of the reasons ich is a nasty disease is that it affects the gills. There can be many more spots on the gills than the skin. Of course, these will be unseen.

However, ich is easily cured if caught in time.

The best thing you can do is follow the instructions of the medication you have chosen.

I repeat that I have cured ich several times with no difficulty other than the one Clown Loach I mentioned above that was purchased in emaciated condition and needed special treatment to bring him round.

Good luck.

[MandaMunky]

Redshark, thank you again for all of your encouraging words & advice.

I'm wondering how do your clowns act while being treated?

Mine are kind of all over the place. One is acting totally normal, the other one will come out but just sort of sits at the bottom, he/she will swim normally if provoked by another fish or because I turned on the light to take a quick peek (BTW - I've been keeping the lights off to help reduce stress) & the third one hides 95% of the time & when it is out swims around quickly like she's irritated or trying to get away from something & flashes.

This behavior has increased since I started treatment. So, I'm beginning to wonder if the Ich infestation in their gills is getting worse (the ones that attaches several days ago are growing/becoming more of an irritant), or if it's the meds that are causing this high stress? I assume it's probably a combination of these things. However, this is day 2 completely spot free, from what I can see, that is... I'm going to keep up with this treatment for a week to make sure I killed everything off (hopefully not my poor new fish).

[MandaMunky]

Well, we lost another one this evening. =(

Down to two now & one looks great & is eating & swimming about, even being kind of bratty & the other just sits & flicks its fins.

I seriously feel like the treatment is too harsh & is what's doing it, because I don't understand how Ich could be multiplying any longer? I feel like it's been a solid two days since we've seen a spot, but lots of flashing still.... actually the most flashing ever. They weren't even flashing, but a couple of times before we started the Rid Ich, now, anytime we turn on the light to look for spots they just zip around & flash on the bottom. I think it's the meds? Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate 15.

I feel terrible, because for those first few days they were all growing & eating & getting stronger, then we saw a few spots & tried to act quickly & they're just dying off one by one. I don't think I'll get anymore fish after these. It's too stressful & my existing loaches will just have to live lonely lives in a school that's smaller than desired.

I'm *SO* glad we had a QT tank. Anyone who just adds new fish without QT is crazy. =(

[redshark1]

Although it was a long time ago I don't remember any adverse effects of the ich treatment at all and I found it a simple cure.

Perhaps the combination of ich cure, parasite medication and salt is more than they can handle. It may also be more than biological filter bacteria can handle (though in your case the nitrogen paramaters are good).

I'd keep things simple and use only one medication at a time.

Or, if you feel sure it is the ich treatment (it may be a different formula to mine) that is causing the problems stop the treatment and just keep the fish at the elevated temperature, say 86F, to cure the whitespot.

I assume you have taken steps to ensure that oxygen levels are compensated for because levels go down as temperature rises and some kind of bubbler may be needed (e.g. airstone or venturi).

[MandaMunky]

Oh - I definitely only have one med in there - Rid Ich+. I never replaced the salt or the General Cure with the water changes. I agree that it was probably all too much, which is why I wanted to finish General Cure then move on, but when they got more spots that became impossible. So, I switched over. Honestly, they looked better with the salt & General Cure than they did/do with this stuff. I understand that it's toxic & I'm not regretting my decision to follow the Loaches Online (& your) treatment suggestions - I just wish they would have made it. The tetras are even looking kind of stressed this morning. Water parameters are still great.

I think the Ich has been eradicated... I really don't see how it could have survived this? I looked at the last fish who passed & it's gills seemed healthy looking, no white spots, but I'm not an aquatic specialist or vet by any means, so, I guess that's worth it's weight in salt.

I'll continue tonight with one last gravel vacuum, water change & treatment. Then tomorrow I'm going to do a water change & add some fresh carbon. Then I just have to figure out what to do with the temperature?

[redshark1]

I would change one thing at a time and observe carefully.

So you will stop with the medication (before or after a full course of treatment?). Hopefully the fish will then improve over the next few days.

If removing the medication improves the fish then I would keep the temp up a week longer and reduce it gradually over a couple of weeks.

You didn't answer about the oxygen. If you can provide oxygen I would keep the temperature up and observe the fish.

If you think the higher temp is upsetting them then you may have to reduce it sooner, but I honestly haven't had a problem with high temperature as long as I've had a bubbler going.

Its truly amazing how much oxygen a simple venturi (powerhead) or airstone (airpump) can provide.

[MandaMunky]

I don't think the temp is bothering them. I don't think the mild dose of salt that I had been using was bothering them either & I definitely don't think the General Cure bothered them. After those were all slowly removed & I began to use the Rid Ich they have all just rapidly deteriorated & gone down hill.

There is a 4 inch air stone in there at full blast... always has been... I also dropped the water level about 1 inch to allow an extra splash from the return of the filter.

Again, the meds aren't all in there together, I used the full course of General Cure then used standard procedure to remove it. I quit replacing salt with water changes 4-5 days ago, so that's been dramatically reduced or is totally gone by now also. Rid Ich, API Stress Coat/Dechlor & beneficial bacteria are the only things I've been readding with water changes.

I decreased the dose of Rid Ich last night by half, & will do the same tonight, but will not stop the treatment completely. I haven't touched the temperature yet & upon more thought/research I probably won't touch it for a while, so, it's still steady at 86*F.

[redshark1]

OK. I know you're working really hard on this and I don't think you can do any more. Lets hope you can salvage something. If not you'll just have to chalk it up to experience. The main problem is the condition of the fish you were supplied with. I did exactly the same as you but got lucky Good Luck !

[MandaMunky]

My last little Clown is still alive, but he's depressed & not too interested in food. Breathing normally & looks good, but just sad. On the other hand, my Tetras look like CRAP! One of them passed yesterday (I think the temps & meds finally got to him?). However, I truly do hope we're on an up swing now since we finished the ich treatment.

I'll leave them temp up but, after the water change tonight I'll be putting fresh carbon into the filter & keeping my fingers, eyes, toes, legs & arms crossed that the Ich doesn't return, because none of these guys will survive further treatment.

I'll try to update again in a few days... hopefully, it'll be a happy update.

No more new fish. The quality of the stock is piss poor here apparently & I just refuse to buy something to watch it slowly die over a period of several days.

Is anyone else from Southern California?

[MandaMunky]

OMG - He's still kickin, but wouldn't you know it!!! Ich seems to be completely at bay, but NOW, I'm starting to see some fin fraying/rot in the tetras & a small little tear in the tip of the Clown's Dorsal fin. So, we started Maracyn Two last night. He's (the clown) is swimming around more now, more responsive, but not really eating, yet, gets active when food is dropped in, but not aggressively going for anything at this point. Keeping up with frequent small feedings, water testing, etc. Still some hope... but I'm sad that he's all alone because I think he'd be doing better with a buddy, but I'm not about to go buy another sick, emaciated baby loach... no way he's going to have to make it on his own until he's healthy enough/through quarantine to be added to the big tank.

[The Angry Loach]

Clown loaches have no scales, so ich treatment can be painful and deadly. The safest thing is to quarter dose them if you really feel it's ich and not water issues. Their small size is the reason I say to quarter the dose. I read that you're using a carbon filter with ich treatment? How does that work? Make sure your little guy has a hiding place all his own. Even at his young and fragile age, he'll still lash out about his own territory. Loaches, like clowns can be quite the fin-nipper too so they need to have an eye kept on them. Tetras are also nippers. Some melafix ought to heal up the little cuts and fight off any secondary infections that try to get in there. Assuming all of your fishies are a little stressed out right now, I can only ask one question; Have you checked your ammonia and nitrate levels? Of all of the water conditions to check, these two are some of the most important. Both of these affect the fish's breathing and can suffocate them. a quick cure for both of these is a 50% water change ever couple of days until you can buy what you need to regulate the issue. They make a product called "NitraZorb" that I keep in all of my tanks all of the time. This helps keep a lot of things in check, but it needs recharged with aquarium salt every five days or so. Seems pricey, but it saves lives. Stressed fish can cause both of these things to sky rocket. If you don't know how to test them and you're not sure where to go, you can always buy test strips at walmart. There's about five of so in each pack and they test for kH, pH, Nitrites, Nitrates, Ammonia, and water hardness. They're not too expensive either. I know sick fish can really break the bank, so these little things certainly help in a pinch. Clown loaches are really weak in terms of chlorine as well. I'd suggest making sure your water is treated well before adding. Extra conditioner doesn't hurt. Did the pale color subside? This is a sign of stress. Moving too much and dosing too much might make things a little worse. No tank buddies until your little guy feels better, too. A weak fish is nothing more than prey to a healthy fish. I might suggest a separator to keep the tetras and our loachy friend away from one another for the time being. A breeder box will work if you don't have one. The tetras would be a better fit, though. Unless you plan to cover it and put some plants or something in there for the little one. I'm glad to hear you have your water circulating further away from the water and a bubble stone going. If it's ammonia or nitrates, this will help. Try not to add too much salt to your water. It can do more harm than good sometimes. as for food, my guys aren't picky, but they love talapia the best. It's easy to digest, just the right amount of protein, and doesn't carry much of anything a freshwater fish can catch. I buy frozen, chop it cut, thaw a little piece as needed, and use kitchen shears to put it into little bite sized bits. One filet can last for months if done right. (Raw, though. Not cooked)

I'm going to be keeping tabs on you and your thread and doing whatever research I can to help you out in this matter. I hope any of this helps, even if some of it is repost.

[MandaMunky]

Thank you, Angry Loach!

Great news to report this morning - he's eating!! MUCH more energetic! Still acting a little woozy/sickly, but A LOT BETTER!

My water parameters are great/perfect - Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - 10! Definitely keeping tabs on that & do water changes as necessary. I use dechlor to make the tap water safe & I also add nitrifying bacteria.

It definitely WAS Ich... but I haven't seen a spot in a week or more, so I think we got that nipped in the bud. I dosed according to the Rid Ich bottle, because it specifically indicated that it was safe for loaches & tetras, BUT obviously it wasn't. I think if they would have been bigger & fatter that it would have been okay, maybe? I'll never know, but I've gained MUCH experience from this. Next time I'll dose by half FOR SURE - even if it takes longer to cure it at least I won't be killing them with meds.

The little guy has several hidey holes & isn't being picked on - I've been keeping a VERY watchful eye on him!

That's great about tilapia! I'll have to look into getting some.

Last night was the third dose of Maracyn Two & I really think it's helped him turn around A LOT! Their (loach & tetras) fins aren't all better yet, but they're not worse. Therefore, I think if I keep them in a healthy environment & feed good foods that we'll pull through. I actually have some real hope for the first time!

Thanks everyone!

[redshark1]

Good news, thanks for posting back. I hope the situation continues to improve.

[MandaMunky]

He just gets better & better every day! YAY!

I think it's safe to say we made it with him & the tetras that are left. One of the poor tetras lost most of its tail & has a bad tear in one of its fins, but I it hasn't progressed, or gotten any worse, in several days - hopefully it'll regenerate with good food & water?

The little Clown is such a stinker though! He wants to eat constantly & practically jumps out of the tank to try to get a head start on whatever food I'm throwing in. LOL He definitely eats his fill until he's got a nice round tummy, but never stops looking for more, more, MORE!

Here are a couple pictures of him:

[redshark1]

That's a real cutie. He also has a saddle rather than a stripe. Does this continue as a saddle on the other side of the fish?