Kuhli in small tank

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Wolfcub
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Kuhli in small tank

Post by Wolfcub » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi loach fans

I have a tank that's approx 25L, tank mates at the moment are 5 pristella tetra, 1 glass cat, 1 yoyo loach and some red cherry shrimp. Before anyone comments that the shrimp will get eaten, at the moment it is a happy tank.

After doing research I now realise the yoyo was a bad choice. It likes to be kept with mates and grows way to big (I did put in 2 but the other one didn't last a week).

OK so my tank is planted and has a castle ornament the yoyo swims in and out of.

I am now looking at taking the yoyo back to the store and replacing it with a Kuhli (I want something to eat the food that sinks to the bottom and to make a home in the castle)

My question is how many can my tank handle? And if you think the Kuhli also gets to big do you have any suggestions?

The yoyo is happy in there at the moment and is by far the most entertaining, hence I want another loach. But I also know if I keep it much longer it'll start to get unhappy.

TrebleClef84
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by TrebleClef84 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:58 pm

I would take the yoyo and glass cat back if I were you. The yoyo will definitely get too big and too aggressive as it ages (definitely vicious if he's in too small a space), and the glass cat is a schooling fish that need several of their own kind in order to be happy.

You might not want to hear this, but if those tetras reach a max of 2 inches, just them alone means your tank would be past capacity. Your tank is very small, so you're pretty limited in what you can do with it, unfortunately. Most people use the "1 inch of fish per gallon rule." I looked that up in litres, and websites said, "3cm per 4 litres." That rule is flexible, but it's good to stick to something around that area. If you're interested in bigger/ more fish, a larger aquarium would be the best solution.

You might not want to deal with it how I did, however. My solution was to get a bigger tank...then bigger...then bigger. I'm at 90 gallons now. Watch out, or the hobby will take you too.

Diana
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Diana » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:39 pm

Ditto to all that TrebleClef says.
You have a very small tank.
It is very easy to overwhelm a small tank. One little thing goes wrong and there is no large volume to buffer the problem.
I also counsel smaller fish that are OK with just a few of them. Shrimp are good.
If you had a dozen fish that only get to a couple of cm that would be OK, or half that many and a dozen shrimp.
Look into the smallest of dwarf Rasboras, Clown Kilies or Ember Tetras. Male Endlers Livebearers would work.
I am not sure if even the smallest of Loaches would work.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

Wolfcub
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:39 am

Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Wolfcub » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:02 pm

I understand what your saying about small tank but surely more things come into it than the number of fish. For example things like plants and ornaments give the fish more to explore, having fish that swim at different levels makes it seem like they have more space...

The filter, pump and lighting is all really good so that along with the plants and the shrimp keep it really clean. I also do small water changes weekly.

At the moment it is a very happy tank. I just know the yoyo can't stay.

I pretty much bought the tank so I could get a glass cat, they are so cool. In hindsight I should have done more research and allowed space for him to have friends. But he seems happy on his own. Initially I did have 2 but 1 was never happy, didn't eat and died.

I've read in a number of places that Kuhli loach are alright in small tanks as long as they have grass and hiding spots. Which I have both.

Wolfcub
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Wolfcub » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:42 pm

OK I had a play around with the aqadvisor website. It doesn't like my tank one bit. Pretty much the only things it thinks I can put in are betta, snails and shrimp. I think that would make a pretty boring tank.

My current set up it hates. Heres the warnings:
Warning: Pristella Tetra is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 2 inches.
Warning: Glass Catfish is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 3 inches.
Warning: At least 5 x Glass Catfish are recommended in a group.
Note: Yoyo Loach on rare occasions will reach up to 10 inches in size.
Warning: Yoyo Loach is not recommended for your tank - it may eventually outgrow your tank space, potentially reaching up to 6 inches.
Warning: At least 3 x Yoyo Loach are recommended in a group.
Warning: Red Cherry Shrimp may become food for Yoyo Loach.

Your aquarium stocking level is 196%.

I expected some of that but surely 2 and 3 inches isnt too big for a 30cm cube

If I take out the yoyo it takes the stocking level down to 144%
If I then add a Kuhli it brings it up to 158%
If I then put in juvinile sizes it drops it to 90%

Am I a monster for wanting to do this?

I guess my next question is how fast do these fish grow and when would I need to get a bigger tank?
Image

TrebleClef84
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by TrebleClef84 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:20 pm

Where they swim in the tank and what your filtration system is like is secondary to your total number fish. In other words, your tank holds X number of fish, and you would never have all of them occupy the same area of the tank or not have enough filtration for them.

The number of fish is so important because you only have 6.6 gallons. No matter where your fish swim or how good your filtration is, all your fish are converting oxygen to CO2 and dumping ammonia into the water, which is constantly changing to nitrite then nitrate. The changing CO2 levels and ammonia->nitrite->nitrate levels don't make much of a difference to my 90 gallon tank because there is so much water to keep levels steady.

I don't have specific numbers or anything, but let's say they make 1 gallon of water pollution. That's only 1/90th of my water. I have a bit less than three times the fish you do, so say your fish pollute 1/3 gallon of water. That's about 1/20 of your water being polluted, which means all your levels are changing much more drastically, stressing the fish. These numbers are made up, but the concept is still the same.

You're not a monster for wanting to do this. I think we all struggle with wanting to have all the beautiful fish in one tank. But if you truly want them to be happy, you have to make concessions. As far as my kuhlis go, they grew to full size within a year or so.

Wolfcub
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Wolfcub » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:11 am

Thanks for that

The first thing I will do is offload my yoyo, going to miss him. They sure are entertaining fish. My shrimp will enjoy the peace though.

I guess I fell into the trap that most people new to keeping fish do: Not realising how much the little fish in the aquarium store can grow.

Going back to the CO2/ammonia story, how much of an impact do plants make?

TrebleClef84
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by TrebleClef84 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:19 pm

That I'm not really sure of. I just switched my tank to 100% plants. My nitrates have gone down about 10ppm, and I don't have a dissolved oxygen test. It's only been a week or two as well. I know plants help; I just don't know how much. It's part of the reason why the inch per gallon rule is a bit flexible, but nothing will let you stock at 150-200% capacity for long without something falling apart.

If you don't get an answer here, try http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/. But be prepared...there are a lot of factors there too, such as how much and what kind of light you're getting, if you're dosing CO2 and/or fertilizers, what kind/how many plants...

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redshark1
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by redshark1 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:35 pm

25 litres? That is pathetic!

You should have started off with a medium aquarium of around 100 litres, much more suitable for a beginner.

25 litres isn't an aquarium its a fish coffin and should not be sold to beginners as being suitable for keeping fish.

No fish that needs to actually swim should be in something that small.

That's the physical parameters, don't get me started on the biology.

Apologies if the above seems harsh but you are way off course!
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

Loachloach
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:15 pm

I must agree with redshark1 on the above. The most your 25l tank can handle is the cherry shrimp. That's what I keep in my ancient 28l tank and don't intend to ever put fish back in there, had a betta before in it which is another option for your tank.

If you want other types of fish and can afford it, get a bigger tank, the biggest you can fit/affort. It will give more stable water parameters to keep the fish healthier and is way more enjoyable. Those fish in the 25l won't last long, way too small for them in there.

Loachloach
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:21 pm

Wolfcub wrote:
Going back to the CO2/ammonia story, how much of an impact do plants make?
For the current bioload no amount of plants will handle the ammonia produced by the fish. Plus plants have demands of their own to actually be healthy and do their job. Normally it's accepted that an 80% planted tank will handle a mild bioload of fish. In your scenario I wouldn't rely on any plants but having them is beneficial and the fish like the cover they give.

arny
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by arny » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm

I think beginners believe they should start with a small tank where as in fact it would be much better for beginners to get a big tank as they are much more stable and if you miss a couple of water changes before a routine is in place it won't matter.
I agree with the above, if you can, buy as big a tank as possible for the space and money you have. You and your fish will be much happier, you could get a proper shoal of the glass cats that you love which would look much better than the single one and you would have more room to create a great aquascape.
You could still keep the small tank and do as suggested above - have endlers guppies which create very very little waste and shrimp.

Bas Pels
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Bas Pels » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:39 am

I think beginners should start with a tank suitable for some 40 fishes.

Sometimes 100 liters would suffice, but if anyone would have a tank with Clownbotia, the tank ought to be mch bigger.

And if the fish are central American cichliuds, 500 l would not suffice.

Still, don't keep too large groups of fish in the beginning: it's hard to tell 1 or 2 fishes out of 20 are missing, but if they are missing, they could be ill or even dead

People with much more experience will not be able to tell 1 or 2 are missing, but will generally be able to tell something is not 100 % with the group they are seeing - and thus the needed care will be provided

Diana
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Re: Kuhli in small tank

Post by Diana » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:27 pm

Relying on pump, filter, light, heater and similar equipment to keep conditions good is fine as long as the power is on.
But what happens in a storm that lasts for several days, and the power goes out?

1a) The house gets cold. 1b) The heater in the tank no longer works, and the house is too cold to keep the tank warm. A little tank like that will get very cold very fast.
2) no light means the plants will not be very efficient at removing CO2 or ammonia. Even if you move the tank near a window (colder) the light is not great (remember, this worst case scenario is in the middle of a storm in the winter).
3) No water circulation though the filter means that the beneficial bacteria in the tank and filter are not getting the oxygen they need. The area on the surfaces is small, the bacteria population has only a tiny window of survival, they start dying, and there is not wide-spread base for recovery. (the tank is OK to build up a little debris for a few days- lack of actual filtration is not anywhere near as much of a problem as the rest of these issues)
4) No pump means the water in the tank is not circulating, so the fish use up all the oxygen quickly and start gasping at the surface.

Net result:
Your tank is WAY overstocked in case an emergency happened.
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You cannot get away with saying the fish are smaller, juveniles, so use less resources. Actually growing fish use a slightly different profile of resources than adult fish, but the most basic concept is that they are growing, so metabolizing MORE protein, using MORE oxygen and producing MORE CO2 than an adult fish of similar size and shape.

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Resources required and wastes of animals are based on the mass of the animal, think of it as the volume. Not the length.
If one fish is twice as long as another (similar shape) it is also twice as high and twice as wide.
This fish will use 2 x 2 x 2 times the amount of oxygen, and produce 2 x 2 x 2 times the waste (CO2, ammonia...) That is EIGHT TIMES the rescources, and waste.
This is especially bad in a small tank where there is not cushion to allow you to get away with a slightly larger fish.

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Fish swim horizontally. If they are 3" long, and the tank is 30" long then they get to swim 10 times their length before they have to turn around. A 3" long fish in a standard 29 gallon tank seems OK, as long as it is not a fish that likes to race across the tank.
Reduce this down. A 25 liter tank is how long? Maybe 30 cm? So a 3 cm fish might be OK as long as it is not a super active fish.
But how many of these can you safely house in that tank? The CO2, O2, ammonia and so on needs to be considered on a 'worst case' scenario. A 'leave some room for problems' set up. Not a set up where absolutely everything that happens tips the tank into the possibility of disaster.

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That small tank is well suited to:

A single display fish like a Betta.

A mated pair of the smallest fish. Not Dwarf Cichlids. More peaceful than this.

A few small fish like half a dozen of the smallest species of Rasbora, Tetra or Dwarf Cories, or similar fish. Max size about 1", maybe 1.25"

Shrimp, but you must keep culling the colony.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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