The perfect clown loach tank mates.

[Loachloach]

This forum is pretty much dead these day but anyway.....

What in your experience is the best combination of fish to go with clown loaches?

So far, by accident I have a pretty smooth running tank.
I have 6 clown loaches, a bunch of platys, a bunch of corys, a few rainbows, a few otocinclus and a pleco.

During the day when the lights are on mostly the corys, platies and rainbows are active, pretty much having the tank to themselves.
During the night it's clown loach and otocinclus time and the pleco is mostly nocturnal too. The rest are not very active at all, mostly "asleep" in between the driftwood, hovering on one spot, or staying still somewhere at the bottom.
So at any one day or night only half the fish are active.

The platies produce fry regularly which get eaten promptly these days by everyone bar the pleco and otocinclus, although the platies are their fry biggest enemy and not the clown loaches. But the poor little newborns get hunted pretty badly either way. There's the odd smart one that survives though.
The corys produce eggs which everyone loves and munches immediately upon being laid, except for the otocinclus. I've even seen the pleco with an egg stuck on its nose.
The rainbows produce eggs which ....the same as above. They also stick to the higher levels of the tank so don't compete with everyone else for food which with this combo of fish is the only downside.
The pleco and ottos clean my glass superbly.

If I could change, I'd have just guppies as a live bearer and fry producer instead of platies because they don't compete with bottom feeders for food.
And I wouldn't have a pleco inside because he eats the veg before the rest get a proper share. But then again I love my pleco because he's fun to watch and he's very gentle despite his size.

What's your setup like?

[Bas Pels]

Clown loaches prefer their waster to be warm, and soft

Platys like it hard, and it may be a little bit cooler. As far as I kinow - I know next to nothing about rainbows, most rainbows also come from harder water

So these two species would not ber my preferred combination.

I'm thinking of a Sumatra tank, with, apart from the clowns, for example, Brachydanio albolineatus, Puntius hexazona Trichogaster leeri, Rasbora kalochroma - all fishes from this same Island, which more or less like the same water.

I don't think this would be a biotope, as ?Sumatra is a very large Island, with rapid moving ater and more or less still water, but it is a start

[Loachloach]

Yes, I know that Bas.
I can't tell how long the clown loaches will last in such a setup but the platies live to 4 years, there's a guppy in there 3 years old, coyrs 5 years old along with the pleco who's 4-5 too. So far so good with the clowns 3+ years. Their colours are vibrant, their shape is healthy and they've never been sick.

[Bas Pels]

Perhaps a bit moralistic, but one might wonder whether we should take fish out of their natural habitat, put them into a tank, in circumstances which are not only not ideal, but even less ideal then possible.

I think we should not. I think both a dog, and a fish are entitled to at least the best care we can provide - where in some circvumstances the best I can provide is not good enough. For instance, I am unable to walk a dog for 2 hours a day. That alone would make me an unsuitable keeper of some very active breeds, such as dalmatiers (known from the movie). Anybody who knopws about dogs would agree to that.

I think the same would apply for fishes.

[Loachloach]

So which fish exactly do you think I don't keep in the right conditions?

Clown loaches prefer their waster to be warm, and softPlatys like it hard, and it may be a little bit cooler. As far as I kinow - I know next to nothing about rainbows, most rainbows also come from harder waterSo these two species would not ber my preferred combination.

Let me correct you on things:

Clown loaches can be kept in a variety of water stats. Where did you read about them needing very soft water? And how soft? And what consequences do you think it would have on my fish exactly if not kept in very soft water?
Only certain species of platies like Xiphophorus variatus are supposed to be kept in colder water. I can't tell you what cross mine are but the ones I have do absolutely fine and live full life spans the way they've been kept. I've kept platies for years.
Rainbows-yes moderately hard water suits them fine, temp suits them fine.
Corydoras-I am not the first to keep them with clown loaches. I've kept mine for years like that and even bred them and raised them in the same conditions.

All my fish breed regularly too apart from the clown loaches. Even my otocinclus.

I understand you go by the stuff written online. But it's not that straightforward. When I keep fish I go by their behaviour and health, same when I keep plants. I observe them. Yes, clown loaches are new to me and it's a long way from full life span if I live that long myself to see. And, yes, I am taking a leap of faith in my own ability to keep fish but we'll see. To me, considering they have never been sick of anything, even itch and are growing and active, is enough for now.
I can tell you that it doesn't take 3 years to keep a fish in the wrong conditions to see signs of problems. It takes 2 months.

[Loachloach]

Taken from this website:

Water parameters: pH 6.5 - 7.0, Hardness: aim for softer water, Maximum DH: 12

Well, I can guarantee you that if that's what loaches.com recommends, mine are kept within this range. And within this range all the fish that I keep can live full and healthy live spans.

They are regarded as a poor choice for the beginner aquarist despite their wide availability in fish shops. They are highly susceptible to Ich if great care is not given to their acclimation or environment maintenance.

Never had that problem, including upon introduction.

[Loachloach]

To further update you on the condition of my clown loaches, this loach came to me the end of last year like this:



And this is him this year after a bit more than half a year in my care in my "unsuitable" conditions:

[Bas Pels]

If you are offended, then please look into the mirror for the source. I did not write anything offending, but you took my words wrongly.

If you want to weigh them carefully, start with reading carefully.

I wrote platys might like it a little bit cooler. X maculatus, in the Original form, are to be kept at 25 C minimum. C maculatus is advised te be kept at ~27 or more. Therefore keeping both of them them @ 27 C is fine, but not nesseccari for X maculatus.

The water is something else. As you quoited, the maculatus likes it on the soft side - and I'm much more interested in what the water parameters are in the wild then on any site.

Let's provide you with an example. Yo can keel Satanopreca acuticeps, a cichlid from Amazonia, for 3 years in water of pH 7, DH 15. Is this water good? Had you kept them in water of pH 5,5 and DH 2-3, they had survived for 10 years or more. Staying in too hard water costs longelivity, and is therefroe harmfull

A brother of mine kept a goldfish in a bowl for 5 years. Well done? Het he put the fish into a pond, it could have lived for 20 years. So the 5 years were not well done.

The some goes, in my eyes, for keeping the S acuticeps in water of 12 DH and pH 7. And were you to koop C macracantha in such water, I would say it is not good.


You wrote the clowns have survived for 3 years in your water. I'm hoping this is not ecactly what they did - I do hope it was living, not surviving what they have done.

[Loachloach]

As you quoited, the maculatus likes it on the soft side

Where did I quote anything about maculatus? They can live in a range of 10-30 dGh. You call that soft side?

I have no idea what type of hybrids my platies are. I've had mine for generations. What I said is mine have been thriving in the conditions I keep them in, so I stick to what I see and experience. I can post a picture of my older ones, you probably haven't seen such large platies.

Therefore keeping both of them them @ 27 C is fine, but not nesseccari for X maculatus.

I can't argue about it, but are you talking from experience? Any tips how to identify what type of platies I have?

You wrote the clowns have survived for 3 years in your water. I'm hoping this is not exactly what they did - I do hope it was living, not surviving what they have done.

I've showed a picture of mine...surviving...clown loaches and I can post more if you like. Please show me a video or a picture of your "thriving" clown loaches and then we talk. I suppose you are trying to tell me my clown loaches will die any time soon.

The some goes, in my eyes, for keeping the S acuticeps in water of 12 DH and pH 7. And were you to koop C macracantha in such water, I would say it is not good.

Let me ask you something. How do you know my fish are "surviving" and the ones kept in the conditions you suggest are "thriving"? What do you go by? By what your ph and gh test tells you or you do happen to look at the fish tank from time to time?

Because, let me tell you...in a fish tank so many chemical reactions happen and so fast that not many people have the slightest idea what their water is like.. Ph is a measure of the balance between H and OH. But it doesn't say how many of each one has, therefore it's a useless measure, it's just an indication of something happening. To elaborate, two tanks can have a ph of 7 for example. One can have 10 H and 10 OH, which gives a balance of 7. The other tank can have 10 000 H and 10 000 OH, again giving a ph of 7. The difference in water type is humongous between these two examples regardless of the ph being the same and being neutral.

Gh tests sold to us test all the Ca and Mg, but they also test oxidized Ca and Mg which are totally useless to either fish or plants and give a false reading that one's water is hard when in fact over time it may have gone very soft because of the lack of positively charged Ca and Mg.

TDS test we use only measure conductivity and the only way to measure Total Dissolved Solids is to make the water evaporate completely and then measure the soilds left.
It's also impossible to accurately measure nitrates with home tests. It is actually very difficult even in laboratory conditions.

So how does one know what the water in the fish tank in reality is or has gone to be like over time? You don't. You hope it's ok and you go by what fish health, behaviour and life span tells you. For example, how do I know my plants have all the co2, nutrients and light they need? By how they look and grow...I don't care what my tests tell me at all.

There are fish that strictly require certain hardness, or the lack of it. There are fish that are tolerant of wide range of conditions and live full life spans despite the water hardness, regardless where they originate from. Which ones are clown loaches?

A brother of mine kept a goldfish in a bowl for 5 years. Well done? Het he put the fish into a pond, it could have lived for 20 years. So the 5 years were not well done.

Yeah, I kept an unidentified fish I caught in the river in an unfiltered tank 25 years ago. It lived for 5 years. I've moved on since, at least I hope so.

[Bas Pels]

@ Chemistry, not only did I graduate in Chemistry, but I even kept fishes while a student.

From the above, I can see you did not.

Firstly, there is an equyilibrium H2O <-> H and HO. To be exactly, 1 out of every 10 to the power of 14 molecules fall apart @ 25 C. So a given quantity can not contain 10.000 H and another one can not contain 1. It is the same.

However, if one would add acid, the amount of H would increase and as H + OH = H2O the amount of OH will decrease. and then the sum of H + OH is not 1 to the power of -14, it is much more.

It can even get worse, I can add an acid and a base. These will react with each otrher and the water, and the result will be a rather stable pH. This kind of solutions are refered to as buffers, as they buffer the pH. Whether I use 1 gram or 10 grom of the same mixture, the pH will be the same.

Therefore, telling me your pH is, say, 7.5 does not tell anything about how much acid you would require to drop the pH 1 point.

But still the pH is of very great inportance.

Life is based on DNA and proteins. DNA stands for Desoxyribo Nucelic Acid and proteins are made up from amino acids. Both acids, so vulnerable to pH changes. If the pH is 1 point higher, the amount of H on an acid will decreas 10 fold. In quite a few reactions, only the acid with, or the acid without the H can react, especially in living organisms, where the reaction takes place in a protein. That is, a very well defined area.

Your blood has a pH of 7.35, if I remember correctly, the same as mine. it is slightly more acid going into the lungs (from CO2) and slightly more going out of the lungs. But would it ever get to 7.25 or 7.45, you would not survive this. the pH is that important.

Our fishes are, I think, similarily vulnerable to this blood pH, and they have machanisms to keep this on the right value. Whether they come from pH 4 or pH 9, the blood pH is (almost) the same. The mechanisms the fish has to keep this correct are, however, hard to correct. And therefore a fiosh from pH = 4 water needs to be kept in acid water. If the water is, say, pH 6 - ta lot of the fishes energy wil go into correcting this mechanism, resulting in less immunity, shorter lifespan and so on.

For breeding this is even more important, after all, the egg is produced, fertilized and then can start adapting. Believe me, adapting to pH with more than 1 point a day is hard work. and thus, eggs intended to be fertilized @ pH = 4 will die @ pH = 6.

A similar agrument goes for the hardness, better conductivity of the water

A hardness test measures dissolved Ca++ and Mg++. It does not measure CA or MG - these are metals which, incidentally, would react slowly with water to form Ca++ and MG++ back again. Furhter, the reaction Ca++ -> CA is referred to as reduction, the opposite of oxidation.

CA++ + O-- would give CaO which does not dissolve in water, but O-- + H2O -> 2 OH- goes much mor rapidly. Still, Ca(OH)2 does not dissolve either - in water of sufficient pH. After all, the OH can still react with the water into H2O and flow away.

For a fish hardness has 2 components. The first is, it will need Ca for its bones. And all fishes from hard water get most of their Ca from the water, not from the food, which is far less important.

A second thin is osmotic pressure. Imagine an egg without a shell (hydrochloric acid can produce this) put into 10 g/l saline solution. That is, water with 10 grams a liter NaCl, the ordinary salt. The egg will do nothing.

Now the egg is sponed into pure water, containing no salt. The egg will swell. What happensis, the salt inside the egg will attracvt the water from around it.

Then, before it bursts, put the egg in seawater. This contains 35 G/l Salts. The egg will shrink. The salt in the egg still puls water, but the higher cncentration salt in the seawater will pull harder.

This is osmotic pressure, and all dissolved stuff in the water increases this. In fect, every molecule, large or small, every ion, large or small increases this precisely with the same amount.

However, dissolving a solt results in dissolving its ions, and 1 NaCl results in 1 Na dissolved and 1 Cl dissolved, thus 2 particles, and not 1.

Now most of the dissolved goods in a tank are charged. If one would a lot of humus - in a black water biotope, this is different, but in virtually all circumstances, the charged particles - ions - are by far the most important.

Charged particles cvan easily be detected by measuring the conductivity of the water. Obviously, an ion with ++ charge does more than an ion with + charge, but due to certain aspects of water, these move much more slowly then the + ions.

The only ions which go much faster are H and OH - again due to the special characteristics of water. But in tanks with pH = 5 to 9, this is neclectable.

So measuring the conductivity is a very good way to find the osmotic pressure.

Vaporising water, and weigting the residue is rather complicated, and may not be that accurate. Obviously the molecules are measured too, but when one would vaporize @ 100 C some molecules will break down, which would not have happened @ 70 C

Secondly, if 1 liter gives 1 gram of residue - I wil lstill have to analyse what is in it. After all, I need to know the amount of particles. Not their size.

however, I understand a commercial TDS apparatus measures the condutivity and multipies it wit 2 - or 0.5, Im not certain.

This was just to explain why chemistry is so important for fish keeping, and I tried to explain some of it.

[Bas Pels]

As you quoited, the maculatus likes it on the soft side

Where did I quote anything about maculatus? They can live in a range of 10-30 dGh. You call that soft side?

I have no idea what type of hybrids my platies are. I've had mine for generations. What I said is mine have been thriving in the conditions I keep them in, so I stick to what I see and experience. I can post a picture of my older ones, you probably haven't seen such large platies.

Sorry, it had to be macracantus

@ what kind of platy - I have no clue. In fact I'm not even interested in breeds of platy, but I am interested in wild ones.

Referring to their temerature needs, wild platys (maculatus) are found in coastal areas in Southern Mexico. in the winter the water temerature will drop to around 22 C, in summer it can get to 30 C. I don't expect them to swim upsteam to avoid the heat, as platies like to be among plants.

[aussieJJDude]

Lately, i been day dreaming about rays and really becoming interested in them. I was wondering if you think clowns -along with other tropical fishes - of a large enough size not to be eaten - could handle FW rays if the tank was around 500 - 600g?? Or would it end in disaster - and if so, who would get the worst end of the stick?
(BTW, I not going to get rays - yet, maybe when I get a house of my own - as I have been daydreaming about them for a while and one thing I always get is the mixed advise in tank mates for rays)

[Loachloach]

A hardness test measures dissolved Ca++ and Mg++. It does not measure CA or MG - these are metals which, incidentally, would react slowly with water to form Ca++ and MG++ back again. Furhter, the reaction Ca++ -> CA is referred to as reduction, the opposite of oxidation.

Yes, that's technically correct. However, a GH test is supposed to measure Ca2+ and Mg2+ but works the same way as an ammonia test which doesn't tell you how much of the total is NH3 or NH4+, so one doesn't know if the reading for Gh is actually a true picture of the positively charged ions available or not . Therefore rendering the Gh test useless in terms of what your water is like for the fish. Maybe you haven't uptdated your knowledge in terms of aquariums.

Firstly, there is an equyilibrium H2O <-> H and HO. To be exactly, 1 out of every 10 to the power of 14 molecules fall apart @ 25 C. So a given quantity can not contain 10.000 H and another one can not contain 1. It is the same.

Yes, I was using fictional figures. But Ph indicates the shift of H and OH in either direction so on it's own it means nothing at all. As if to say that if I inject CO2 to drop the Ph I am going to have nice water for fish requiring acid conditions like altum angels.

Our fishes are, I think, similarily vulnerable to this blood pH, and they have machanisms to keep this on the right value. Whether they come from pH 4 or pH 9, the blood pH is (almost) the same. The mechanisms the fish has to keep this correct are, however, hard to correct. And therefore a fiosh from pH = 4 water needs to be kept in acid water. If the water is, say, pH 6 - ta lot of the fishes energy wil go into correcting this mechanism, resulting in less immunity, shorter lifespan and so on.

For breeding this is even more important, after all, the egg is produced, fertilized and then can start adapting. Believe me, adapting to pH with more than 1 point a day is hard work. and thus, eggs intended to be fertilized @ pH = 4 will die @ pH = 6

.

Yes, some fish require certain environment to breed but not necessarily to live full and normal lives. Take for example otocinclus which also breed in my water.
And I suppose I certainly won't be able to breed clown loaches regardless of the liquid I put them in, or I'll be extremely lucky if that happens.
There are plenty of sources advising that clown loaches are tolerant of wide range of conditions. Please link to scientific info or detailed water stats measurements of their native habitat as I am unable to find any, not even a video from the wild for some reason. Or please link to any info suggesting shortened life spans and disease susceptibility when kept in a certain environment.
Your gold fish example kept in a bowl has nothing to do with this because it refers to water quality in terms of ammonia/nitrites/organics, etc...What I want to know is in terms of issues specifically related to water stats such as Ph, Gh, TDS, etc..

If the water is, say, pH 6 - ta lot of the fishes energy wil go into correcting this mechanism, resulting in less immunity, shorter lifespan and so on.

It will result also in disease susceptibility, loss of colour, behavioural changes, etc..It's not like when you keep fish in improper conditions it looks perfectly healthy with vibrant colours, active and happy and it drops dead the next day because it heard it's being kept in the wrong ph.

However, you are presenting Ph as the only important measurement. For example chocolate gouramis which come from Sumatra and Borneo require very low ph of 4-5.5 but require Gh>8 and that combination is very hard to achieve in a fish tank.
Can we presume clown loaches require the same?
Here is the source for chocolate gouramis:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... 7gasxuFSAg

[Bas Pels]

However, you are presenting Ph as the only important measurement. For example chocolate gouramis which come from Sumatra and Borneo require very low ph of 4-5.5 but require Gh>8 and that combination is very hard to achieve in a fish tank.
Can we presume clown loaches require the same?
Here is the source for chocolate gouramis:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... 7gasxuFSAg

I did not press GH, as I assumed you already had done so

With regard to the choclate gourami - the data you presented are odd, but possible. The Lake Victoria has soft water, but a high pH

Still, were I to keep these fish, I would first verify the data.

But I know a pH of 4.5 or lower is something which is almost nowhere in the world common. Not knowing anything about chocolate gouramis, I would assume they are found in a certain swamp, and this swamp would, most likely, only be inhabited by specialized fishes. Is the clown among them? Don't know - but I would be very surprized if they were.

So no, I would need to read a lot more before I would use these values for clowns

[Bas Pels]

Lately, i been day dreaming about rays and really becoming interested in them. I was wondering if you think clowns -along with other tropical fishes - of a large enough size not to be eaten - could handle FW rays if the tank was around 500 - 600g?? Or would it end in disaster - and if so, who would get the worst end of the stick?
(BTW, I not going to get rays - yet, maybe when I get a house of my own - as I have been daydreaming about them for a while and one thing I always get is the mixed advise in tank mates for rays)

500 g = 2000 liters.

As far as I know, the smallest stingray will grow to a disk size of 30 cm, and will therfore have a length of over 30 cm. Perhaps this ray could fit in a 2000 l tank, especially if the tank is rather short and has a large front to back distance. 2 * 1 * 1 - or better still, 250 * 150 * 53 cm (53 cm high)

A 400 * 70 * 70 cm tank would not suffice.

However, most tspecies grow to for bigger sizes - and I know in the end a 2000 L tank will not work

However, do remember, stingrays come from very clean water, and they are rather sensitive to high nitrate concentrations

With regard to combining them with clowns - I have not a clue. Personally I would rather combine an American fish with Americans, and Asian fish with Asians, but I wonder whether this is really needed for the fishes. In all circumstances, that is.