Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

[atmichaels]

Fran- to address your stocking question, what is "small" for the loaches because these guys get big? In fact, there are several(!) discussions on here and other forums on appropriate tank size for clowns.

[FranM]

Clown sizes--3", 2", 1" tops. Below is one example of where I'm getting my idea about the bio beads. However, I do rinse mine regularly and I don't use a canister filter. Plus I don't have saltwater....

http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-foru ... ign-7.html

[Loachloach]

Do five silver dollars, three small clowns, seven cherry barbs and one Betta really seem like an over stocked tank? Thanks to those who've replied.

I'm feeding two, just TWO frozen cubes of either bloodworms or brine shrimp, either once or twice a day. I feel I'm UNDER feeding if anything.

Why do you feed just frozen food? None of these fish strike me as needing that diet on a daily basis. Frozen foods are high on protein and are a good conditioning food but they don't contain all of the stuff the fish need. Your fish will do well with some vegetables too in their diet and quality pellets as main diet. They may not be processing the food you are giving them correctly, resulting in higher production of waste. Plus anyone that feeds just frozen foods would have higher nitrates anyway.
Are you worried about the nitrates the test show you or do you have issues with the fish?
I don't worry about nitrates. They are one of the products of a much larger picture. Organics and the amount a tank has to process are the issue. But not all of them end up as nitrates. And to process them, essential things are taken away from the fish starting from oxygen, to essential ions, etc...It's the chemical processes that we force a tank to do that deteriorate the water quality.

[atmichaels]

You are heavily stocked if not overstocked. The silver dollars should be in a 75, same with the clowns. At your current stocking level your small water changes aren't enough to keep up with the waste produced. Also, what you're feeding should be adjusted. The silvers especially should have a higher vegetable content in their diet. Reducing the animal protein you feed should help reduce the nitrates as vegetable matter contains fewer nitrogen compounds. I know this isn't quite the answer you were hoping for but you will need to increase your pwc's and should consider upgrading to a larger tank(s).

[FranM]

I feed frozen because the clowns like it, I do feed peas and broccoli too. Now that it's a better season for zucchini I do feed that as well. I've considered giving up the silvers for adoption but there is no way in hell that I can net them. I've thought about the long term challenges with the silvers, the clowns grow slowly.

I will do a 50% water change. I wish I could upgrade the tank.

Thanks everyone.

[Diana]

Bio media DOES cause nitrates.

Would you want all that to stick around as ammonia or nitrite? I didn't think so!

The whole reason for having bio media is to convert the toxic forms of nitrogen to less toxic forms.

Then it is up to you to remove it. Plants can help, water changes can help, filter inserts that remove nitrates can help. The first 2 are very good. I have not used the last method except when I was still learning about water chemistry. Waste of money, when plants and water changes do so much more.

[Vihaga]

What's your substrate, and how well do you clean it? Any time I have issues with nitrates creeping up and haven't been overfeeding (and I wouldn't count that out; if your fish are still small, you may well be overfeeding them- four cubes a day, which you mentioned as your max, would be WAY overfeeding any of my tanks), it's been because I didn't adequately clean *something*, whether the filter or the gunk at the bottom.

[FranM]

Hi Vihaga.

I always vacuum gravel and 80% of the water change comes from the gravel. I don't think 2-4 cubes of frozen is overdoing it. And all 4 wouldn't be at the same feeding. I have five large silver dollars in addition to the others. Two is enough for them alone.

[Ardillakilla]

One thing that can help is to clean your mechanical filters frequently. That removes detritus before it decomposes and enters the nitrogen cycle. Little benefit is derived from mechanical filtration if you allow fish waste to remain in contact with the water.

Lastly, I want to reiterate that without an accurate nitrate test, this whole discussion may be moot. You might not even have high nitrates. Also check if your test is in nitrate or nitrate-nitrogen as there is a 4.4X difference between the two.

[FranM]

Ardillakilla, I routinely rinse filter media at each water change. Going to see exactly what the test kit says....it's a Nutrafin basic No3 and measures from 0.0-110.0 mg. If I want the reading to reflect nitrate as nitrogen then I need to do the mathematical equation (divide the result by 4.4 as the direction states). Hoping this is an accurate test and at the highest I've tested it appears to be around 40. When it hits that I do the water change.

Thank you.

[FranM]

It's been five days since I've done a w/c and I tested a couple
days ago and it was hovering around the 40/50 mark. Tested earlier and it appears to be between 50-100. It's difficult to assess color as it only gives 5 options.

So anyway I just finished up a 50% w/c and nitrates seem to be between 20-50 , which would make sense. Luckily the package with the Fluval C4 and Matrix just arrived so I'm going to set this up now. Hoping for positive results over the next couple weeks. Will continue to update for the person(s) that was interested in the effectiveness of the Matrix. Thanks again, everyone.

[Diana]

I think any media you try is simply going to act as a surface for nitrifying bacteria.

You add protein to the tank.

It gets digested (fish, snails, microorganisms... does not matter)

Any nitrogen that the plants and animals do not incorporate into their body ends up as one of 3 things in the water, take your pick:
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate

There is no other answer. Nitrogen cannot become anything else (like oxygen, or carbon... ) It can only join with other molecules and become compounds of nitrogen. In reverse, other elements (oxygen, carbon) cannot become nitrogen.

Very old computer phrase:
Garbage In = Garbage Out.

Same formula works in aquariums.
Nitrogen In = Nitrogen Out.

All the monkeying with the filter will not change that. No matter how many times you ask if you are overstocked, that is not the answer. It has nothing to do with how many fish of any size are in the tank. It has to do with how much nitrogen you are adding to the tank. Protein in the food is the single highest source of N in unplanted aquariums.

I have kept tanks with lots of fish (higher stocking level than yours) with no plants. It took 50% every week and as much gravel vacuuming and filter cleaning as I could do to keep them OK with respect to the NO3 levels. Even then they were often pushing 40 ppm.

Now I have planted tanks.
I will feed my 125 gallon tank 4 frozen cubes in one feeding. This tank has 4 Bichers (8-12"), 2 Clown Loaches (6") 4 Filimentosa barbs (5", but tall fish), (1) common Pleco (6"), (1) BN Pleco (5"), (1) unknown cat, like a giant Pim (6"). That is a lot of fish, and they will indeed eat 4 cubes in one setting. But I do not feed this tank every day, and I do not feed high protein food with every meal. I rotate in vegetables, algae based dry foods, and other things. High quality, but not always high protein.
Last time I checked the NO3 it was so low I had to add nitrogen for the plants.

[FranM]

Diana, what you say makes sense. Most feel I'm over stocked. It has to be a combo of both. But as far as feeding protein goes, that's what clowns thrive on the most, no? Yes they get supplements of zucchini, peas, romaine lettuce for the silvers, but I always understood that protein based foods were the best for fish health and growth.

Dry foods add nitrogen too, no? Many cloud the water which I can't stand. What do I feed that is still healthy for all fish, yet won't add direct nitrogen to the tank? I wish I could do plants but I tried once and it failed. I bought a high Kelvin bulb. Now that I keep silvers they will most likely devour them. I won't do the co2 setup. I don't have the proper lighting and if I get it I'm looking at hundreds and no guarantee plants will survive, never mind thrive.

Thanks, Diana, for your input.

[Ardillakilla]

Nitrogen content is directly proportional to the protein content of food. In aquaculture, there are actually formulas they use which take the % protein in food, the amount of food, and calculate how much oxygen and bio media surface area is required as well as water changes, ammonia levels, etc.

[FranM]

So, how can do you fulfill the protein requirement of fish while not contributing to the nitrate issue?