Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

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Diana
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Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Diana » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:26 am

I do not know if you are OVER stocked, but you are UNDER changing water.

You cannot feed that much protein and not add nitrogen. The very definition of protein includes nitrogen. Protein is turned into fish tissue, that is the way they grow. If you do not feed protein then only the specialized fish that handle vegetables well will thrive. The protein content of vegetables is too low for many fish, though. They need food with a meat base. Dried foods, frozen foods, live foods... makes no difference. These are made from fish, worms, insects and so on. These are meat foods, and are higher in protein than vegetable foods. Most species of fish need these types of food to thrive and grow.

The digestion of food includes the fishes' body taking a certain amount of the protein from the food, breaking it down to some extent and rebuilding it into the materials the fish needs to grow, make tissue repair and so on. The waste material includes bits of protein that may be damaged or old tissue, and waste food, ingredients the fish cannot use. Mostly the fish metabolism turns this into ammonia (NH3) and it is excreted by the gills. Other organisms in the tank (snails, microorganisms) have a similar metabolism. Whether they take in the waste from the fish, or fallen food the fish miss does not matter. They are using a certain amount of the nitrogen you added in the protein and passing on the leftovers to other organisms.

By rotating in more vegetable food you are feeding less nitrogen (plant tissues have less protein than animal tissues), but a lot of fish won't eat vegetables. Silver Dollars ought to, though. I understand they are known to nibble plants. Clown Loaches may eat vegetables, too. They cannot live on pure vegetable diet, though. Mine are not very interested in them. If your fish are gobbling all the food you put in, not allowing it to hit the bottom, and seeking out all the bits that do make it past that first 'feeding frenzy' then you are not overfeeding.

You simply have to do larger water changes, or more frequent water changes (or both) as long as you are adding that much N.

However much N you add has to be balanced by removals. The test to make sure the equation is balanced is the NO3 test.

Secondary tests are of course ammonia and nitrite, but you are hoping those do not show up. If they do, it means the bacteria are not doing their job.

It is just like having cats as a pet. If you have one cat you might just need to clean the litter box every other day. If you have two cats you need to change it daily. If you have 3 cats you might have to change it a couple of times per day. There is no getting away from it: What goes in must come out.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

FranM
Posts: 482
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Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:57 am

Thanks, Diana.

Even if I limit frozen feedings to three times per week, supplementing with dry or freeze dried omnivore food is still adding protein, correct? I know all the fish love peas. Are they as bad as frozen since there is a good source of protein in peas?

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Diana » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:35 pm

I would have to look at a nutrition label to see, but I think that even plants that are high in protein (like peas) are not as high as most meat based foods.

Lets go see...
You can google the question, too, and look into it in more depth. Here are a few numbers.

Cooked peas are 14.7% protein. Many legumes, seeds, nuts and similar things are in this ballpark.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=55

Cooked fish is 25% protein
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/9244/2

Protein (plant and animal sources) averages 16% nitrogen.

Tubers, roots, fruit are lowest in protein, often under 2%.

The nutrition rating on the label of the food will also help. It is not important if it is high quality protein or the worst thing you can feed the fish. Whatever the protein is, that is where the nitrogen is. 16% of that food is a good average to assume when you are asking 'how much nitrogen is in this food?
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:45 pm

Thank you. I actually looked up the peas after I posted but figured you'd know right off the bat.

Bas Pels
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Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Bas Pels » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:48 am

FranM wrote:So, how can do you fulfill the protein requirement of fish while not contributing to the nitrate issue?
You can't

Protein gets digested. A part is used to grow, the rest will become ammonia - which is precessed by bacteria into nitrate.

Plants take up nitrogen to grow, but normally one would require lots of plants for avery fish.

The only solution is waterchanges. Remouve water with lots of nitrogen and replace it for water with less, or better without any (if you are so Lucky; most often there is a little in tapwater)

Each and every tank needs lots of plants or waterchanges. Quite often - unless you would not feed the fishes

FranM
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Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:33 am

Thanks, Bas.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:22 pm

Did closer to a sixty percent water change and the nitrate test result was the best it's been, between 5-10. I have Golden Pothos in place in the HOB filter, already rooted, so I'm really hoping that I see better nitrate control. I did get quite the pleasant yet bittersweet surprise while doing the water change. I saw a baby fish, most likely a cherry barb, about the size of a skinny grain of rice. I doubt it's there now but it was so exciting to see. :-)

I wish I could do a bigger tank, but I'm hoping the Pothos buys me lots of time. As far as feeding goes I'm lightening up big time on the frozen food. I am trying to create a better environment while still meeting the needs of the fish. Thanks to all for their input.

FranM
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Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:04 pm

It's definitely a baby cherry barb, and it was swimming around several hours later in the tank. How it managed to escape the silvers or the clowns, well, it's a stroke of luck! As soon as I saw it I netted it. Then I dug out the old tank divider I had and made a square enclosure. It's drying overnight and it'll go in the tank tomorrow. I already looked up how to make fry food and fed it once already. But naturally lots of the mixture is falling thru the net and this will happen in the enclosure too because of the small holes. Soooo, what can I lie on the bottom of the enclosure that I would already have in the house, that won't float? I already looked up aluminum foil and that's not a good idea. Thanks. I FOUND ANOTHER ONE WHILE LOOKING AT THE TANK!!

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Diana » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:55 pm

I would move the fry to any sort of container with an air bubbler at the surface for just a bit of water movement. A sponge filter would be even better.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by FranM » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:46 pm

About a week with the cherry fry and they are noticeably larger. They are being housed in main tank. It's been a week and a day since my last water change, still seemingly 20-40 nitrates. Between 30-40% water change brought nitrates to 10 approx. Over the last week I've had Matrix and an already rooted Golden Pothos in the filter. Something seems to be working. Feeding less frozen food as well. That's the latest.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail--3 month update

Post by FranM » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:50 pm

Nitrates are not spiking; lower levels between water changes. Cherry babies are getting so big, but not ready to release them yet. It's been a good three months!

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Diana » Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:43 pm

Seems like you are doing a better job of balancing
N going in = N going out.

It does not matter if the food is frozen or dry. The protein in bloodworms is the same in frozen and freeze dried. Granted, the measurement is a bit different. Frozen will of course have a higher % of water.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

Dojosmama
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Dojosmama » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:08 pm

Do you have a sponge in your filter box along with the ceramic beads? If so, it's very likely the sponge is the culprit and not the beads. Even rinsing the sponge weekly will not remove all the debri that is in it. The sponge is mechanical filtration -- it catches all the gunk and holds it until it's removed by rinsing. But it never gets completely out.

Some folks have found that removing the sponge and adding more bio-beads is a better bet. Also, you don't need carbon unless you've medicated your tank and need to remove the meds. Carbon is chemical filtration.

Another possibility is, if you've had your bio-beads for a very long time, eventually their pores will get clogged, and they well start to break down and have rougher edges after awhile. If this happens, you need to gradually replace them -- emphasis on gradually. If your beads feel slimy, it's also time to replace them. Again, only do this gradually, so you don't disrupt your biofiltration.

Bio beads will last and stay good for a very long time, but not forever. Look at your beads. Do they appear clogged? Has it reached the point where no amount of rinsing or swishing will clear out their pores? Then it's time to start putting in some new ones.

If you decide to get rid of the sponge, which holds a great deal of crud that causes nitrate build-up, you may need to compensate by doing more frequent or larger water changes. Then again, if you have a prefilter sponge on your intake tubes, that will help keep your filter cleaner. It should be rinsed every water change. It's much easier to clean a prefilter sponge than the main media sponge, because the prefilter isn't sitting in the filter box with all the dirt that accumulates in it, and the prefilter is also smaller.

Hope this helps.

Bas Pels
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:08 am

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Bas Pels » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:57 am

Personally, I have most of my tanks filtered with sponges, and they are working nicely.

Obviously, they start as just mechanical filters but then, after a while, the dirt collected in them starts te be degraded. Actually quite logical, after all, the dirt is nothing else then a buffet for the bacteria which degrade this dirt, waiting to be eaten.

Still, every now and then, the filters start clogging, and a sponge needs to be rinsed. This does not happen every month, but is is a chore.

The trick might be that I use a few, coarse, sponges in a row, the first working mainly mechanical, the latters containing a lot of bacteria. Sometimes a sponge becomes clogged on an inconvenient moment. Than I just remouve it, and the nice thing is, the sponge starts reacting with the air, resulting in most of the dirt becoming CO2 and H2O. Obviously it still needs a bit of cleansing, but what remains is less then half the job it was.

Dojosmama
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Ceramic Bio Beads Fail?

Post by Dojosmama » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:30 pm

As the bacteria eats up the ammonia and another bacteria eats up the nitrite, the by-product of all of that is nitrate, and the only way to get rid of that is to rinse the media as well as possible in tank water or dechlorinated tap water, clean the entire filter as needed, and do regular, substantial water changes and vacuum the substrate. Nitrate builds up in the filter media and inside the components of the filter, itself, and there is no separate bacteria that will eat up nitrate. As the dirt in your filter sponges and filter box degrades, nitrate is the bi-product. That's what causes nitrates to accumulate and rise.

There are conflicting schools of thought on whether or not one is better off dispensing with sponges altogether and just using bio-beads, but those who've tried it have experienced lower nitrate levels, providing they keep up with or even slightly increase their tank maintenance. That could simply mean doing slightly larger water changes, or doing smaller ones more often.

Waiting until a filter becomes clogged means that there are already high nitrates in your tank, and that stresses your fish.

Thoroughly cleaning a filter (as in taking it apart and clearing out all of the gunk that gathers inside the intake tubes, impeller chamber and plastic housing) doesn't need to be done every month. It's quite a chore and can be a pain in the kiester, but eventually it becomes necessary. Rinsing the media should be done at least once a month. Then again, no matter how thoroughly one rinses, some debris will always remain in the sponges. After awhile, the entire sponge needs to be replaced. Some folks have gotten around that by eliminating the sponges altogether.

It's another option to consider and may not be right for everyone.

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