playfull behaviour or intended murder?

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Maarten B
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playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:59 am

Along with my loaches i keep boesemani rainbowfish. Occasionaly, a few eggs hatch in the sump. If the baby rainbows survive the beeshrimp that live in it, i raise them and, when large enough, ad them to the main tank. Done it a few times, never any problems.
Last week i added a 4cm female rainbow an hour after feedingtime, like i always did before. Cheked up on it a few times. All ok.
fish were calm, the baby rainbow only a little nervous, but swimming around like they all do.
out of nowhere, the second largest clownbotia (10cm) grabbed the baby by the tail, bit it clean of, grabbed the stump, swam around with the still living fish, the same way as with a snail, smashed it on a rock repeatedly, as done with snails, then released it.
The mangled, still living rainbow floated up and was left there for a minute or so. Then, the largest clown took it down to do the same thing to it. And also let it go then. This repeated twice over, until the panchax took it and "shared" the finally dead rainbow with the others in a feedingfrenzy. NONE of the clowns ate the baby.
I was horrified, but grabbed my phone and tried to take pictures. None succesful, except for the dying halved fish at the surface, wich i better not share.
Can anyone tell me what happend?

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:35 pm

playfull behaviour leading to an unintended murder?

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:56 pm

Let me add after thinking about this a bit:

It is not unusual for loaches to test new fish added to the tank. Even peaceful species (clowns, kubs, striata) did this for me. Testing involves chasing and even biting, and they did this to danios, rasboras and rainbows. Usually there is no damage and they lose interest after a couple of days.... Your fry simply was not strong enough to survive the testing.

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:27 pm

I think you have a point there. They all test new fish. I have also seen them chasing, pushing etc, new and old fish. But accually dragging it along was new to me. In the past i have added smaller fish, and nothing like this ever happend.
I too came up with a new theory since this resembled the eating of a snail so much:
This particular rainbow did not hatch in the sump, but the egg was pumped up into a sidetank of my 12-point-food-and-oxygen-injection-manifold, in wich i also raise daphnia and marble pondsnails. It took about 4 or 5 months for the boesemani to grow to 4cm. All the time in this small 12 liter tank, with only a little flow, surrounded by snails (she ate all the daphnia in the first month) made her smell like a marbled pondsnail, wich are regularly injected in the main tank, thus known food for the clowns.
Could it be that the clowns "inspected" the new fish like Mikev said, smelled food, tried to eat it, tasted something different, released it, upon wich the next clown investgated????
Looking back at the failed photos, a yoyo did the same thing.
There are 2 more baby rainbows growing in the normal sump. I dont want the same faith for those. Other than that, this little "drama" is unimportant, and clowns are usually very friendly to all others, but i'm very curious as to what this was.

Thanks for the replys, Mikev.

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:21 pm

You are very welcome.

No, I don't buy the smell theory.

And I think this is important ..... the chances of your pack trying to repeat this with new boesemani are real... now that they know how to molest a baby, they are likely to do this again.

Perhaps the next time you add a boesemani, let it stay in a net for a day and see how the loaches react.

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redshark1
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by redshark1 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:25 pm

My Clowns have never harmed smaller fish including Boeseman's fry.

If they ever do they'll be on Warburton's and Water for a week.
6 x Clown Loaches all twenty-six years of age on 01.01.20, largest 11.5", 2f4m, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr = 110 US gal.

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:08 am

redshark1 wrote:
If they ever do they'll be on Warburton's and Water for a week.
i made them stand in a corner on one fin for an hour, "And no clicking!!!!" :P

I will try the net next time, in two months or so. The previous one, a praecox-boesemani hybrid, is now still only 5cm, hardly growing and never harmed so 5cm will have to do. I'll report back by then.

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:24 am

a praecox-boesemani hybrid
You have a photo? Curious.

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:49 am

About time i take some good pics. Resizing is a hassle though. Isn't there a way to auto-size them to
it this forum? A lot of the fotoquality is lost this way, and on a specialized forum like this, high def is a must.

anyway, got nice shots of the culprits:
Image
Image

praecoxmom and bastard chi....pfff...
Image
...praecoxmom and bastard child, note the "squarer" scales of mom:
Image

clearly a praecox male, note the praecox-face, shape, shine, finflashing and fincolor:
Image

Funny foto showing the boesemani- orange horizontal lines, body color, sixsided scales and an adopted diamond tetra wanting in:
Image

edit:
And of course one of 2 possible fathers, no praecox male was present.
note the bulkier shape, larger face, longer fins, but the same lines, base color, and sixsided scales
Image

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:00 am

Thanks. The "bastard" looks like he took more from the m.praecox side.... not too attractive, but most rainbow hybrids tend not to be.
(I'm curious about the subject being guilty of a couple of hybrids myself. One, strangely enough, seem to be more attractive than either of the parent species at current 4cm size ... but need to wait for them to grow up to really see). The boes male (last photo) is not bad at all! :D

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:42 am

Show us the pretty one please.
The other male is even larger, with ahigher back. Their shape does seem to slow them down though. The females are much more agile.

On topic:
Maybe my fish just like to eat fish because i feed raw bits of cod, flounder, haddock etc when we eat it.

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mikev
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by mikev » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:06 am

Maarten B wrote:Show us the pretty one please.
I'll get to it eventually.... difficult to photo, this is a 5g growup tank with a bunch of other rainbow juveniles, I cannot aim at the right one. :oops:

But here is a magnificent hybrid from someone else... I wish I could get some like this, but the fish is said no longer breeds.

The other male is even larger, with ahigher back. Their shape does seem to slow them down though. The females are much more agile.


On topic:
Maybe my fish just like to eat fish because i feed raw bits of cod, flounder, haddock etc when we eat it.
Donno if this can be a factor.

Loachloach
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Loachloach » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:11 am

Nice clowns. It's odd that they did that. Mine don't bother fry or small fish at all, not yet anyway and not that I've seen. I added 10 baby forktail rainbows ones and no one took any notice. But I feed the fish before I add fish :lol:

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:45 pm

mikev wrote: But here is a magnificent hybrid from someone else... I wish I could get some like this, but the fish is said no longer breeds.

.
Looks nice indeed, but at the same time strikes me with a "goldfishfeeling", but that might be just color. Guess one has to be lucky to get such a pretty cross.
On that subject, a 2,5 cm baby in the sump is clearly a female, but the fins appear yellow, like a praecox girl. She is also next in line for the main tank. I'll see how it turns out in a few months.
Loachloach wrote:Nice clowns. It's odd that they did that. Mine don't bother fry or small fish at all, not yet anyway and not that I've seen. I added 10 baby forktail rainbows ones and no one took any notice. But I feed the fish before I add fish :lol:
Thanks :D
as said before, mine where fed a hour before the event aswell. Maybe they expected dessert :mrgreen:

Maarten B
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Re: playfull behaviour or intended murder?

Post by Maarten B » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:14 pm

The plot thickens:
The "bastard rainbow" is killed. Found it floating when i came home today. Tailfin torn off, one eye missing, head in a strange angle, throat broken open, and a round bite out of the underside of the gills. But not eaten. I took photo's of the corpse, not pretty, so i will only place them if useful.
He was fine yesterday. Been in the main tank for almost a year. So why attack it now? And who did it? I am a little puzzled.

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