I bought clown loach Number 7

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Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:30 pm

Good, clear video. He looks very healthy, good colours. Nice and busy, also a good sign. Is he about 4cm/1,5"?

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:17 pm

Maarten B wrote:Good, clear video. He looks very healthy, good colours. Nice and busy, also a good sign. Is he about 4cm/1,5"?
Yes, I think he's about 4cm long.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:01 am

Well guys, I am suspecting the tank got ick/ich/white spot. :evil:

I've noticed flashing/rubbing off plants by 4 different baby platies and the clown loach once. Other than that all is normal.
There are no white spots yet but it's probably not progressed there yet.

I noticed a baby platy flash 3-4 hours after I introduced the clown but I thought it can't be that fast and it was probably because of the temperature being raised so fast. Can ich infect another fish within hours even if the one introducing the disease doesn't seem affected at this point ?

So far I raised the temperature the first day from 24 to 28C. Now it seems my heater is at it's max doing so I'll grab another one tomorrow to raise it to 30-ish.

I dosed a small dose of salt today (3/4 tablespoon on this 15G tank(54L). Clown loach appears unbothered by this amount and is browsing happily still. There is a baby panda cory in the tank too. Poor thing must endure this as well.

I changed the UV bulb of my UV sterilizer with new. . I raised the filters outlets so the surface is very well agitated.

I am thinking to go temperature, salt increase gradually and UV sterilizer route.

Any objections?

How soon should I see the white spots on the fish themselves after they start rubbing themselves?

Geez, it seems I must deal with this white spot for the first time. I hope I am wrong but I had never seen them flashing before so something must be going on. :cry:

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mikev
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by mikev » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:02 am

Sorry for your problems... what is happening is just one more case for not quarantining with "old" fish around... but never mind.

Infection within a few hours is unlikely. Given that you have not yet seen actual white spots it is not certain that you are dealing with Ick, it may that the flashing is caused by another protozoan parasite or something else altogether. Salt+Temperature is not a reliable way to deal with Ick and likely totally useless if you are dealing with something else.

Good luck!

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:54 am

There's no way I would know what I am dealing with right now. There are no visual signs that I can see. Their poop is normal as usual. I took the ick precautionary measures because isn't it what everyone presumes when they see flashing on a newly introduced clown loach.

I saw the flashing as the temperature rose the first day straight away and I wrote it off to stress. Since then, yesterday evening and today I saw several different ones flicking.

I am not worried about the platy bunch. I've got too many platies. I just don't want to be cruel and kill them now experimenting. The little baby panda cory came from the same shop as the clown loach so it had to go in there.
I've got a breeder box hanging which has cory eggs in it that actually hatched today so I can forget about that.

I've seen the clown flick twice. Last night during feeding and today during feeding. Video below. Sorry for the noise, washing machine in the background. He's scraping his gills it seems to me.

Salt+Temperature is not a reliable way to deal with Ick and likely totally useless if you are dealing with something else.
Yes, I understand it's useless for anything else. I am presuming they have ick right now. Why is salt, temp and UV filter useless against ick? I nearly read all ick threads on this forum and everyone killed their loaches using meds. Doesn't seem any more reliable to me.

What would be your suggestion?

Here's the video, he flicks half way through it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3QqmKW ... e=youtu.be

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mikev
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by mikev » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:15 am

Why is salt, temp and UV filter useless against ick?
This is not what I said.

In your situation I would go with quinine.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:17 am

quinine sulphate?

Except for ick, what else does it treat?

Also, why do you say "in my sitation"? Is it because there are no white spots visible yet and there should be on the loach at least?

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:29 am

Sorry about all this questions. I just want to make sure I want to go a certain route. What's your experience with quinine sulphate and clown loaches?

There's a thread here when quinine sulphate was suggested for white spot on loaches here, being the safe method and the one that deals with resistant ich and as far as I can remember, it stripped off the slime coat off the loaches, one died in no time, can't remember about the rest but there were more casualties. The OP had to flush the medicine out to save them.

This is a tiny loach. Right now he's not much affected. I don't want to kill him off with meds. But then again he may die anyway if he's got ick and I don't treat properly.

I can get some of the quinine and wait till I see white spots before I treat with actual meds? Because if it's not ick, and something else, the med will kill them all.

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mikev
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by mikev » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:40 am

Totally safe in my experience, including fry.
Because if it's not ick, and something else, the med will kill them all.
Huh? Where are you getting this idea? If it is not ick but another protozoan infection, it will work too, most likely. If it is not a protozoan infection, it will have no effect. Again, people use it as a preventative med.
There's a thread here when quinine sulphate was suggested for white spot on loaches here, being the safe method and the one that deals with resistant ich and as far as I can remember, it stripped off the slime coat off the loaches, one died in no time, can't remember about the rest but there were more casualties. The OP had to flush the medicine out to save them.
LINK?

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:06 pm

I got confused sorry. You said first it may not be ich and salt and high temperatures are unreliable and definitely not helpful against anything else bar ich, but what about combined with UV? You said "that's not what I said"

Do you suggest full dose or half dose of quinine if I get it tomorrow?

I am not trying to save the platies. I want to save the loach and possibly the panda cory which appears fine so far. It was the only panda in the shop so I bought it in order to get it some more friends when they stock up again, but maybe not from that shop.

Here's the thread about quinine on clown loaches.
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... 7&start=15

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mikev
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by mikev » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:36 pm

Let me try to repeat to make this clear:

If the disease is Ick, Temp+Salt+UV may work, but this is not guaranteed.
If the disease is not Ick, Temp+Salt probably would not do anything useful, only stress the fish.. UV will kill some parasite (if it is protozoan) but will not cure.

If you treat, use full dose. Turn off UV.

It is not entirely clear what has happened with the person on the thread you linked (thanks!). Could be overdose (but I overdosed a few times intentionally too with no problems). Could be dead parasites rotting in the slime coat. Could be something else... Generally it is best to tireat in an empty tank because otherwise you can have totally unpredictable effects due to strange chemistry and the meds are also less effective in a tank that has things like substrate, gravel, plants.....

Initial reaction to quinine is also odd, I never saw this happening with any kind of fish. It is possible that quinine reacted with something in the tank and became something else altogether. Things like this do happen, try treating tetracycline (generally harmless/useless) with UV on for extreme fun. :P

As for c.panda (offtopic)... this is one of many types of fish one should not buy from a lfs. Nice fish (I have a lot of them), but get them from a good source, the quality matters.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:11 pm

Thanks. I'll see if I can find quinine sulphate tomorrow and how the fish are getting on.
I won't be home all day unfortunately so it will be evening time before I do anything.

The tank is not empty too, and old as hell. I think I'll have fun having to treat in this tank but I expected I suppose.

I am afraid to touch any other tank. Is washing my hands with soap and water and then drying going to prevent spreading?
The tank is in the same room as 3 others. I hope ich doesn't fly :roll:

Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:05 pm

I am learning here. I hope all fish will be ok.
but ich is still unconfirmed now, right? Fish scratch themselves al the time, couldn't it be just that? (Hope it is)
Good to read that you are taking all the pre-precautions now though.
Do look up the aqua crobes stuff, might just help, and certainly won't hurt.
I had a few questions about the little one's behaviour, but i'll save those for a better day.
good luck!

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:59 pm

Thanks Marteen B. We'll see how the treatment will go. I am hopeful I can keep this little guy and my platies pull through.

Shoot away with the questions if I can help. The little guy is behaving normally right now and appears to only flick when he's eating. I wonder if he's got ich in his gills and when picking up the pellets is when he gets irritated when passing some sand through his gills.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:54 am

I went around the fish shops today. Unfortunately they don't sell quinine sulphate in Ireland apparently. They've got the other commercial white spot meds of all kinds. I just bought a new heater, which the small clown loach started exploring straight away. I dosed more salt today. The clown loach didn't notice. I suppose the platies don't care about salt. I don't know about the little cory but I think temporary they can handle some salt although panda are sensitive fish.

I upped the temp now to 30C(86F) and I'll keep it there for 3 days, well this is the plan at least.

There are no white spots on any fish yet, including the clown loach. I haven't seen him flash outside of feeding time. But I've seen the platies flashing here and there yesterday, not today though but it's early yet. I hope they are not flashing because of the high temperature and not because of white spot. They were born/kept at 23-24C, now it's 28C and soon 30C.

I've uploaded another video of the baby clown. He looks great. His colour has gotten dark orange with proper black stripes. He must have been eating snails because his belly is getting nice and round and am feeding sparingly right now and hadn't fed them today yet.

I'll post the video when it's up.

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