I bought clown loach Number 7

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Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:39 pm


Loachloach
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:29 pm

For the record, over the last two days after dosing salt, TDS went from 325 to 490 the first day, 2nd day from 490 to 575ppm(smaller dose salt too). Temperature is now passing 29C, it will be 30C soon.

The flashing seems to have stopped. I can't see any fish flashing and especially the ones I noticed were doing it often(I can distinguish them as when small platies can have different colour variations) And the first platy I saw flashing that happened on the first day, hasn't been seen doing it recently. There are no white spots on her too. But then again I am treating for white spot :shock:

I am following some salt/heat treatment protocol someone posted here years ago and I saved at the time to have it in tmes of need, which is for sensitive fish apparently that can't handle much of anything, with that difference that I started dosing at 28C where I should have started earlier. We'll see how this works out.

Day 1
Increase the water temperature to 80F (26.6C)
Perform a 20% WC.
Add 1 Tablespoon of salt per 20 US Gallons of water (76L, 16.6 UKG)

Day 2
Increase the water temperature to 82F (27.7C)
Add 1 Tablespoon of salt per 40 US Gallons of water.

Day 3
Increase the water temperature to 84F (28.8C)
Add 1 Tablespoon of salt per 40 US Gallons of water.

Day 4
Increase the water temperature to 85F (29.4C)
Add 1 Tablespoon of salt per 40 US Gallons of water.

Days 5, 6, 7 and 8
Do nothing

Day 9
Perform a 20% WC.
Decrease the water temperature to 84F (28.8C)

Day 10
Perform a 20% WC.
Decrease the water temperature to 82F (27.7C)

Day 11
Perform a 20% WC.
Decrease the water temperature to 80F (26.6C)

Day 12
Perform a 20% WC.
Decrease the water temperature to 78F (25.5C).

Day 13
Return to the typical maintenance protocol.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:12 am

I've noticed things these days I hadn't noticed about clown loaches before.

Due to the lack of caves, his first "sleep" spot was staying vertical next to the internal filter and the glass. But before he actually settled there for the night, he spent all day seemingly "cleaning" the spot by going up and down that side very gently, the same thing as in the video with the heater I posted yesterday.
Yesterday when I added the heater, he did the same with it. He literally spent all afternoon and evening "cleaning" it. Just before I went to bed he was trying to "sleep" vertically next to it which spooked me for a 2nd. I know that a healthy fish won't burn themselves by accident so I left him at it. He's fine today, must have smartened up and slept somewhere else. But anyway, it seems they clean their chosen spot at first.

The other thing is, he's a bit stupid with food and it looks like the platies outsmart him, at least as a pack. The moment I drop food he starts chasing all the platy fry away from the falling food instead of eating the food. By that time the rest start swarming from all sides and eat it just under his nose and he ends up with the last left overs only if any. I need to drop more food at a time for that reason because he's such fool :lol:

And although he seems to be "nipping" the platies, he actually isn't nipping them. I saw he nearly swallowed the tail of one and I was sure it will be ripped, but nothing at all. It seems the platies figured he doesn't actually bite and are getting bolder with him. I know that when my bigger clowns eat from my hand, the "nipping" is actually a very soft bite like being touched by a soft brush, the brush being the barbels.

And, he's found out finally how to eat snails. I have mini ramshorn variety in this tank that don't grow larger than 2mm. They are the flat type snail, not the large red ones. He grabs them, puts them on his nose and swims around sucking the snail, not letting it fall.

Anyway, back to the white spot.

Temperature is 31C right now. Everyone is fine including the little panda cory. She ran from out the plants for breakfast today eagerly.
I started adding today's dose of salt slowly. I'll spread it throughout the next few hours.
There's no flashing, no white spots at all. If that was ich, I'll never really be sure but I know I saw them flashing so I keep reminding myself that in order not to stop the treatment too early.
The flashing stopped after the initial dose of salt and before I raised the temp up so something must be working.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:24 am

Do look up the aqua crobes stuff, might just help, and certainly won't hurt.
I actually did after you posted about it in another thread. I had never heard of this stuff. I would only be able to get that online. Thanks.
As for c.panda (offtopic)... this is one of many types of fish one should not buy from a lfs. Nice fish (I have a lot of them), but get them from a good source, the quality matters.
I totally agree. It matters how corys are raised. I don't have much choice at all where I live. Around here in my town, the choice is very minimal, only on lucky odd days. The shop I normally like ordering from is miles away. They order anything I ask for even if they don't have it. It's a very large and very nice shop and has great reputation. They are also extremely helpful even over the phone. However, they keep their tanks at a ph of 6-6.5 max where here we've got hard water. So it's not ideal ordering sensitive fish like panda corys and clown loaches and acclimating to my water, plus they need to travel overnight instead of 30min or so.
A few years ago I got 6 gold laser corys from them. When they arrived and I opened the box I was shocked. They had packed each cory in those narrow and long plastic bags, one cory in each with the idea the bags to stay upright with little water, lots of oxygen. The bags had tipped on one side during travel which means the level of water was reduced to just about keeping the cory's head in water and half the body was outside. Their tails had literally stuck and nearly dried out. I still have all these 6 corys, 3 of them recovered their tails, 3 of them have stuck/deformed tails still, that was 3-4 years ago. Needless to say I wasn't happy. They cost a lot at the time and the only reason I didn't make a fuss is because I felt sorry for the fish. Luckily the stuck tails don't bother their well being at all.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:37 pm

I don't know if anyone is reading my rumble but I just need to throw it out of my chest.

I haven't seen any flashing since the last time.

Today was the 4th salt dose which I put in early in the morning. Then in the evening just a while ago, after reading a bit more about ick, I decided on one more dose to a total 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water as the clown or platies weren't showing much stress. Temp is between 30C and 31C nearly 31C since I added the 2nd heater.

Now, according to the ich treatment I have decided to follow, I need to wait 4 days doing nothing, no water changes, nothing. Then I start lowering the temperature little by little and do 20% water changes every day for a period of time

However, I got a big scare in my big tank where the big clowns live. I saw my big clown scraping himself off the sand. Now, I've seen them do that before, not often but they've done it from time to time. My corys have done it too and it happens when they have to dislodge food stuck in the gills and I had just fed them. But with the ich going in the small tank I totally flipped. I haven't seen anything since, they've been out all day.
I have been extremely careful and I haven't even put my dry hands into the clown loach tank. But last night I cut cucumber and after I washed it, I put it on a napkin that was on the kitchen counter near the sink. Now if there was a water drop there that was infected with ich, got on the napkin and onto the cucumber I put in the tank, then that's the only way I see me transferring the ich to the big tank. All I can do now is wait I suppose.

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mikev
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by mikev » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:54 pm

Have you actually seen any signs of Ick? (spots, specifically).

Dirt in the water and chemicals can cause irritations too.... did you clean up the qtank before putting new clown in? People often do, and it is possible that by cleaning you stirred some old gunk and that led to symptoms (and in fact this may even lead to fish deaths).

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:18 pm

mikev wrote:Have you actually seen any signs of Ick? (spots, specifically).

Dirt in the water and chemicals can cause irritations too.... did you clean up the qtank before putting new clown in? People often do, and it is possible that by cleaning you stirred some old gunk and that led to symptoms (and in fact this may even lead to fish deaths).
No Mikev, I haven't seen a spot of ich yet which is either a good or a bad thing.

I siphoned a bit alright but I didn't stir at all. .I had been doing daily water changes for two days in the small tank since the little clown came in before the real flashing. I know what you mean. Last year I pulled all plants out from this same tank, stirred the substrate a lot, etc... Found the baby otto, took an ammonia test and it was low but positive, fortunately didn't kill it. So I know not to stir the gunk...

It could be the water, it could be chemicals from it, elevated ammonia, but it's not very often I see flashing or scraping and I do 50% water changes weekly for years without any problems. Something was irritating the loach and I am so much hoping it's a coincidence because he did it repetitively for like a few minutes. I was freaking out.

Today I only changed the water in my two big tanks and decided to skip two others, because I use the same python, via the tap and my big tanks are better stocked and need the water change, so if the clown loach tank is infected, now the other tank is too.

And the big clown flashed before the water change. I didn't see him doing it after it. But temp in there during the winter stays at only 75F, meaning ich will take longer to develop....

Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:39 am

Studies show that when people want to buy a certain type of car, they notice more that type driving in the streets. Are there more of those cars? No, the car is on the persons mind, so he just notices them.
With all our talking about it, i too see (contiously notice) my loaches flashing more than before.
I think this week this happend to me, closely whatching them for hours and hours.
My resident clowns flash on rocks all the time. But more than before? I am not sure.
When humans scratch themselves, it doesn't mean they have fleas, lice, mites, ticks, psoriasis, fungus etc.
I found this week that flashing is also a social thing.
They mark a spot where they want to sit down, like a dog doing a turn in his bench before sitting down.
They mark spots in a territorial way, like a cat does in the neighbours backgarden.
They take turns in marking exactly the same square inch of a rock. They do it 10 times in a row, and go out of their way to do so, and make way for the other loaches to do the same.
It is a social loachy thing, like the loachy dance. I can't be the first loach keeper to notice this.
It does however look different from a real itchy scratch, whitch seems less controlled, and happens swimming faster, and through the whole tank, in a random, whatever-surface-is-closest-kind-of-way.
So which flashing do you see? The calm and social way, or the irritated fast and nervous way? Are there other signs, like faster breathing?

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:54 am

You may be right Marteen.

Yes, it happens they flash but not very often at all. I would notice once every few months the most. I've seen a cory doing it here and there. It's always associated with dislodging something from the gills.

As for the big clown yesterday, it looked like irritated flashing. He scraped himself off the sand repeatedly like he wanted to dislodge something off his side but there was nothing visible. He stopped and I haven't seen him doing it since but right now he's in his bed. The other 5 have been dancing around and none have done the flashing thing yet. It's normal him being in bed and the other 5 dancing. He's the laziest of them and only joins from early morning till around lunch during which time they are all out begging for food, then he packs bags and goes to his tube. He is still not fully part of the group and prefers his own company. He often comes out just after all other 5 are gone back to their cave, like he waits for them to go. I don't know why that is, maybe he lived alone for years before I got him. He likes doing the flaps on his own....and he sleeps on his own...he never tried joining the others in their cave and there's plenty of room by what I can see.

As for the platies, had I not have platy fry in the tank with the small clown, I wouldn't have taken that much notice of the clown flashing at feeding time because I've seen him flash just twice during all this time, always during feeding, same as my older clowns. The platy fry however, had never flashed before. I've never seen any platy flash ever so that was the get go for me. They have stopped it now during treatment. But the flashing could have been also elevated ammonia due to the sudden temperature rise I did in just one day and lower oxygen levels. I mean, I am yet to see any spots on any fish....It's either I applied a very fast and effective treatment or my fish never had ich.

Good news is, little clown is active and healthy looking. The panda cory is out and about. And even the single cherry shrimp that had hitchhiked from my other tank and grew up in there is out and unbothered. So are the platies, they all behave normal, TDS is over 800ppm right now, I must measure it exactly, temp is nearly 31C

Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:20 am

Loachloach wrote:
Good news is, little clown is active and healthy looking. The panda cory is out and about. And even the single cherry shrimp that had hitchhiked from my other tank and grew up in there is out and unbothered. So are the platies, they all behave normal, TDS is over 800ppm right now, I must measure it exactly, temp is nearly 31C
good to hear :D . yes, may be the high temp and the harder salty water that makes them itchy. lets hope so.
31'c? and the shrimp is stil ok? how do you manage that? my adult cherrys all died in this temp while we were on holliday in france.

i ment to ask you:
does your new clown act as if there isn't a threath in the world?
does yours like algea flakes? mine don't
do you plan on getting him samesized mates?

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:26 pm

how do you manage that? my adult cherrys all died in this temp while we were on holliday in france.

i ment to ask you:
does your new clown act as if there isn't a threath in the world?
does yours like algea flakes? mine don't
do you plan on getting him samesized mates?
I'll answer in order of questions asked.

I found cherries that accidentally ended up in a planted pot on the window. I measured temps at 13C or so and they spent the winter in there.
As for 31C and salt, I think it's all about oxygen. The tank is open top, one filter splashing from above, the other is raised up making lots of surface movement too.

Yes, the clown looks quite happy considering...

I've never fed algae flakes, but my older clowns love algae wafers. I specifically started feeding them algae wafers when I noticed that they love them, and that they left the plants alone when there's some in their diet. Their favourite is New Era Plec pellets. They go mad for them, so do the other fish but I avoid them because they just go fighting for them. Now they get spirulina sticks.

The small clown didn't mind spirulina mini pellets as well and acts crazy around any food right now.

No, right now I am not planning on getting him same sized mates as I don't want another ich outbreak mostly. But I would have got him a buddy had they have one more in the shop. I am planning on powerfeeding him for a while so he picks up faster. He'll stay in this tank for now until the summer temp kicks in, then my other tank goes into 29-30C and it will be probably the best time to move him.

I have corydoras in the clown tank and they manage just fine getting a bite to eat amongst the clowns, there isn't any aggression towards smaller fish, even the big clown isn't pushy towards the smaller ones during feeding. It's very peaceful.

I feed small pellets like NLS which come in 0.5mm, 1mm, 2mm etc. and everyone manages to grab their own. In the past, when I fed some hikari wafers, the clowns just stole them and ran into their cave with them so the rest of the fish weren't getting much.

Right now the small clown, maybe because of the salt and high temps, is quite the pushy one during feeding. With that attitude he won't have problems catching up with the bigger ones and I hope he manages to join the group regardless of size difference. I unfortunately hadn't thought about that fact much when buying him.

Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:44 pm

Loachloach wrote:You may be right Marteen.

It's always associated with dislodging something from the gills
Again, something for me to studie. :P
mine dont. :idea: I now know why they all start sifting sand after dinner. They do make a big sandy watercolum though.

Over here, all fish love spirulinawafers too. Just not the flakes :? . Picky i guess.

The small one will probably be fine in the group. The larger ones let them eat.

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:11 pm

Yes, I think it's sand that gets stuck in the gills.

Little clown is such a clown. I dropped a few bloodworms, he started acting crazy as usual when I drop food, chasing the platies away first and by the time he was finished, the blood worms were gone.

But it's the way he's chasing them, with his mouth wide open trying to swallow them at once :lol: Here he is, very funny. Look at his mouth... :lol:

Image

Image

Image

Loachloach
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:46 pm

Well, so far so good. Everyone is active and acting normally from what I can see and unless I didn't know the temp is at 31.2C and TDS at 775ppm, I wouldn't have noticed any difference in behaviour. The water has evaporated a bit so today the salt concentration maybe even higher.

There's no flashing, no sign of ich in the tank with the small clown. What the platies did the first few days was flicking off the plants and one had clamped fins. The clown loach flashed twice against the substrate. These are the only signs of ich I've seen, no white spots. It could be also because of the UV sterilizer being on from the start.

I've been feeding them normally, just on the low side but they get variety of foods to keep their immune system strong.

I haven't done water changes during treatment. Before I introduced the clown loach I had done a 50% water change and then daily smaller water changes for two days after which I started dosing salt. It's difficult matching the salt dose in new water so I don't want a TDS shock additionally. I'll follow that treatment plan I posted and next Wednesday I'll start lowering the temp and doing small daily water changes to start reducing the salt. I hope the little guys are fine till then in these conditions. And I hope that's not too fast of a treatment at the same time....Some say to keep that for two weeks or so, the treatment I am following says 8 days. But then again I haven't had any signs of ich for a few days already.

The tank is otherwise well established and must deal with nitrogenous waste very effectively so I am not worried about lack of water changes for 8 days or so. And surprisingly, my plants except one are unaffected. The moss is loving it and exploding with new growth. One of the crypts has had a growth spurt too. I keep the light on as usual for the plants and the oxygen they may produce.

In the tank with my big clowns I haven't seen any flashing besides the one off rubbing the big clown did. It also has adult platies in it and they are not flicking/flashing/rubbing and one would think they'd be affected fast same as the baby platies did.

Maarten B
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Re: I bought clown loach Number 7

Post by Maarten B » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:11 pm

Loachloach wrote:

Image

]
:lol: Look! I am a flying dustbuster! Run platies! :lol:

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