Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

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Curtis
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Location: Ohio, USA

Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by Curtis » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:56 pm

Does anyone else have Clown Loaches from Sumatra? Almost all photo's of clown loaches seem to be loaches from Borneo. The last group of loaches I picked up are from Sumatra. I'm just wondering if anyone else has some.

Also, I wondered if anyone knew why they are currently from Sumatra when they seem to normally come from Borneo. At least all the ones that I have encountered around Northeast Ohio.

This article tells how to see the difference. http://www.loaches.com/articles/clown-l ... variations

Thanks.

Greek
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Location: Krakow, Poland

Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by Greek » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:34 am

How big are Your new loaches? That's a tricky aspect that juveniles of bornean form are sometimes very much alike the sumatran form fish. They also have red pelvic fins. There is no rule - they can look like clowns from Sumatra while beeing young and they can be typical 'Borneans' all along.
I've purchased three tiny clowns lately and two of them have 'normal bornean' pelvic fins, and one looks like sumatran form. Of course it doesn't make sense, because they are surely 'siblings' so they must have the same origin :)

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redshark1
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Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by redshark1 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:51 am

:? I do not know about the variation in Clown Loaches across their natural range (though I would expect some) or what the true differences are between Sumatran and Bornean Clown Loaches.

I have a male fish in my shoal which is very pale and has significantly less colour than the others. It came from a tank full of similar fish and I was told they were from Sumatra.

I have been told certain things, but do not have a favourite theory myself.

I simply find I cannot know for sure until I see some good science or perhaps make that trip and find them myself :D .

Here is a link to an article which is contrary to the one Curtis posted.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... ra.491976/
6 x Clown Loaches (all twenty-four years of age on 01.01.18, largest is 11.5"), aquarium measures 6' x 18" x 18" 400l/110usgal.

Greek
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:17 pm
Location: Krakow, Poland

Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by Greek » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:44 pm

Redshark1 thank You ever so much for this link! That's very interesting. I've just spent a few hours on firstly analyzing this article, than checking the source which was citated, than checking the sources which were citated in this source... Whoah! :P I'll probably spend next few hours on that. And I also found some interesting maps showing Sundaland in the pleistocene epoch! Thank's one more time :)

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redshark1
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Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire, England, Great Britain.

Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by redshark1 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:03 am

You're welcome Greek! :) It's good to share the enthusiasm with Curtis and yourself and I'm glad you found it interesting.

Our knowledge of the world is on shaky ground unless were are able to base our beliefs on repeatable scientific study.

I'm not taking sides here but the earth was once flat was it not?

In the picture below it is the last of my fish on the right which may or may not be Sumatran according to who you listen to!

Image
6 x Clown Loaches (all twenty-four years of age on 01.01.18, largest is 11.5"), aquarium measures 6' x 18" x 18" 400l/110usgal.

Greek
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:17 pm
Location: Krakow, Poland

Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by Greek » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:05 pm

Huh, I've just found out one astonishing fact. About the botias I was writing about:
Greek wrote:I've purchased three tiny clowns lately and two of them have 'normal bornean' pelvic fins, and one looks like sumatran form.
This one with red pelvic fins has also shorter rear stripe (it surely doesn't reach the caudal peduncle) and it is really more brighter. The remaining couple is decidedly more colorful, it has definitely more 'sharp' colours, and their rear stripe reaches the caudal peduncle in 100%. And they of course have black-coloured pelvic fins.
I must admit that I am a little bit confused, because I bought them together, what usually mean that they come from the same delivery. They are also in the same size. So it must be an interesting coincidence - maybe mixing between some different imports. I don't know how this things are realised, so it's hard to predict.
Of course I know that these days we more often can buy loaches bred 'artificialy' in southeast asia, but that mix suggest that those fish are probably wild.

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redshark1
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Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by redshark1 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:42 pm

Greek, that's interesting. I don't know how to explain it either unless fish from different sources are mixed.

Incidentally, my retailer was showing me the hormone induced Clown Loaches and lamenting the quality. I had a close look and they put me in mind of the biscuits you can buy cheap because they are misshapen. Many of the fish were not beautiful as Clown Loaches from the wild normally are. Some had short "noses" and there were some non-standard stripe patterns going on. Clearly the process has some downsides.
6 x Clown Loaches (all twenty-four years of age on 01.01.18, largest is 11.5"), aquarium measures 6' x 18" x 18" 400l/110usgal.

Greek
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Location: Krakow, Poland

Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by Greek » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:29 pm

Yes, I hope that the hormone-induced Clowns are only a little piece of all available in trade. I also don't think that it is always pay off, because as I know Otocincus sp. is generally imported from SA as a wild fish, cause it is still cheaper than Otocinclus' imported from asian farms. Maybe it is the same calculation with loaches.
Here is an interesting PDF: https://www.was.org/documents/MeetingPr ... 2_0621.pdf
Industry of C. macracanthus still based on capture of wild fish
Number of exported fish still difficult to evaluate
1998 : 20 millions , 2011 : estimated around 50 millions
controversial estimations (registered vs unregistered exportations)
I don't know if this data sticks to each year (e.g. 50mln exported in 2011) or if it describes number of specimens exported thus far (e.g. 50mln exported earlier than 2011). If it is 50mln in one year it is incredibly high number.

But I am afraid that YoYos are commonly hormone-induced bred fish, cause of it's price which I see these days :? Or maybe the locations where those fish are collected are very accesible, so the price is lower because of that. I have no idea.

I'm also interested if pangios offered nowadays in stock are wild or bred artificially (I see very fast fall of prices of them).
And maybe You know if fish which are the effect of hormone induced breeding are also capable to bred or they are infertile?

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redshark1
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Re: Clown Loaches from Sumatra vs Borneo

Post by redshark1 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:10 am

I took it to mean 20 million exported during the year 2008 increasing each year up to 50 million exported during the year 2011.

The document you posted also reports a decrease in the wild population.

Somewhere, I saw a document mentioning a Clown Loach research project that was abandoned because industrial processes (possibly logging and mining) caused the rivers to be so turbid that the research could not be carried out.

If I find this information again I will post it.
6 x Clown Loaches (all twenty-four years of age on 01.01.18, largest is 11.5"), aquarium measures 6' x 18" x 18" 400l/110usgal.

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