i need help--Really lots of it!

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sully
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i need help--Really lots of it!

Post by sully » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:32 pm

First, I am not as familar with this board as I could be/should be. So, I am not sure this is the right sectionfor the following. It does involve a clown loach so this seems to be the best one--lol. And, I just looked at the post counts and figured it is the highest traffic area. If it is misplaced--please move it to the proper location.

I ramble a bit in posts--so please persevere.

I have an issue--it is correct, species spefic, information to being delivered to hobbyists by retailers. Information typically provided by retailers that should know better to hobbyists that don't. It is information delivered to Hobbyists that rely on retailers to provide honest, accutrate information about fish they sell.

I wander a number of boards. This being one of the best. I see, like most of us do, the endless threads that get into lfs or mass merchandiser bashing. Over the years I began to tune them out--even avoid them. I always thought if it bugs you that much--do something productive--let's not just complain to ourselves.

I recently stumbled into a couple of those threads elsewhere by accident. I am a long time member at one of the sites where I saw the bashing. I knew the person bashing well enough that I shared a letter I had sent to PetSmart a couple of days earlier. Only the second time in my life I had penned that type of letter--the first time dealing with the fishkeeping hobby.

The response was interesting. Never really expected it. As I said to an on-line friend, had I expected the letter to be anything other than a single "angry man" letter that mass merchandisers receive I would have written it in an entirely different fashion. With an entirely different style. But, since it was a single "angry man" letter it is what was sent.

It turns out that a number of fishkeepers from a number of other sites liked what they saw. And thought they too could do the same. I guess it turns out that fish folk do want better.

Here is that letter.
-----------------------------------------
9/16/06



Mr. Kenneth T. Hall
Sr. Vice President, Merchandising
PetSmart, Inc.
19601 North 27th Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85027

Dear Mr. Hall,
I visited your website this morning and saw your engaging photo with “George”. That was enough to make me think that you were the individual that this correspondence would be best directed.

I visited one of your locations yesterday. I was looking for an iron supplement for a planted aquarium as well as a water conditioner. While in your store I looked at many of the fish that PetSmart sells. I was generally impressed with the quality of the tanks and the apparent health of the specimens in PetSmart tanks.

I do, however, take serious exception to the blatant misinformation evidenced on the in-store advertising. POP signage. It could be construed as misinformation designed as a cross merchandising technique to sell other product to the fish buyer. Probably simple mistakes.

Let’s take two of the signs; found on the tank to describe the species therein —if you want I would be willing to address many, many more.

Leporinus fasciatus.

In store sign says max length is 7”. This fish grows to nearly 12” (30cm).

POP signage says a 10-gallon tank will suffice. A 12” fish in a 10-gallon tank? Is the staff at PetSmart familiar with what is commonly called “stunting”? A documented anatomical and physiological occurrence resulting in deformities and often times disease and death.

The signage also calls out the requirement for Aquarium Salt. Why? The fish is found in fast moving waters of the Amazon River basin. One of the last areas you will find concentrations of Sodium Chloride remotely approximating what will happen if a fishkeeper follows your directions and adds “Aquarium Salt”. You may find mineral salts, darn few and certainly of a different nature. And, interestingly, the concentrations of the mineral salts found in the natural environment will typically be far exceeded in many of the water supplies across North America. Is Sodium chloride really “required”?

Clown Loach (Botia macracanthus/Cobitis macracanthus)

Another 7” fish if PetSmart is to be believed. And, once again they should not be. Commonly thought of as a 12”+ species this fish has proven to grow much larger in favorable environments.

A 10-gallon tank is called out on the POP signage. Most respected sources say something along the lines of a tank with the minimum of 36” length for smaller specimens (the ones you sell) and substantially larger for older fish.

Thankfully the myth of Aquarium Salt was not perpetuated with this species.

Mr. Hall, I guess my concern is that PetSmart postures itself, in so many ways, as to be interested and concerned for and about the life forms it sells to the public. To see such a blatant disregard for a non-mammal line of livestock is disconcerting.

Your company periodically receives a bashing on-line by the “new” fishkeepers. People that discover so much of what they were doing was not really a good approach to promoting fish health and longevity. A bashing delivered to relieve some of their own internal pressure when discovering that fish deaths can be avoided with appropriate care and housing. Call it “responsible husbandry”.

Does PetSmart engage in providing misleading information by design, or are the incredible number of errors in the information provided just simple mistakes? Maybe an error at the printer? Or, even the result of overzealousness by a copywriter attempting to promote cross merchandising without adequate knowledge of the fish he or she is describing?

I am not an ichthyologist, a chemist, a biologist, or a scientist of any kind. I am just a simple fishkeeper that has managed to do the research (utilizing legitimate scientific resources) to gain an understanding of what I need to do in order to avoid the easy art of killing fish. I am a fishkeeper that believes it incumbent upon retailers of your stature to do the same.

Heck, have John Gerstenberger, or the copywriters, simply go on-line to www.fishbase.org . They will find an amazing amount of scientifically based, species specific, information which may help them understand the fish you sell just a bit better. From there it is rather simple to find the competent PhD’s in the biochemistry and fish fields that will more completely fill out the knowledge base required. The legitimate information is out there with just a few clicks of the mouse. The information at the sites for many of the well recognized and respected Universities in the United States (and internationally) provides a plethora of data that discusses many of the issues you could take a leadership position with as a responsible “Pet” retailer.

Hopefully the next visit to a PetSmart will be less insulting to the senses. And, since I do enjoy PetSmart, hopefully the next visit will not be the last. Or, even the beginning of a different approach to promoting accuracy in information.

Respectfully,




cc. Robert F. Moran
Barbara Fitzgerald
Mary Miller
------------------------------------------

It seems a number of people scattered about the country, members of several other sites, have decided they dislike wrong info and are writing letters (even stealing the one you just read). Don't know that using what I wrote is best. Usually letters like that are best when someone speaks from their hearts, in their own style.

POP signage is such a routine thing. So easy to update--and frequently updated and reprinted anyway.

I just want accurate information about species.

All the stuff with pH Up and Down; Bacteria in a bottle; Aquarium Salts.....is incidental. If consumers start getting basic, accurate, information I will feel like a victory is achieved. The other crap--caveat emptor--in most cases, from my view of the world. Stores have to make money. As long as they do not harm fish with product or lie to a consumer.....

I found the adress and names contained in the letter on the PetSmart website. If you don't want to use snail mail here is an e.mail address.

corpcommunications@ssg.petsmart.com

Hopefully you feel as strongly as many others do and participate in sharing your thoughts about misleading in-store signage.

thanks for reading.

sully
___________

oh, to the folks i have shared threads or chats with in the past, if you feel a perverse need to see the originating thread it is over at that site several others here periodically stop by--or I think of as home..

and, i don't keep up as well as I should with the genus and species thing. So confused by the loach world anymore--lol. old dogs change habits slowly.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Sent my version yesterday sully. Hoping the community will help make this simple but important change a reality. 8)

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Jim Powers
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Post by Jim Powers » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:43 pm

Very good stuff, Sully.
I'll have to send one along myself.
Image

sully
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Post by sully » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:15 pm

thanks Shari and Jim. Hopefully others will share the passion.

I just registered several domain names for the endeavor. a couple of them were the simple .com .org variation of the .net name.

And I set-up web hosting for the next three years.

Thought the people here would appreciate the sentiment in the name.

"no clowns in a cube"

This is probably not a quick easy thing. But, i think it is important people get the appropriate information and that the species we all enjoy are treated in a humane way.

Send those letters--lol.

The site will not be working for a while. now i have to sit down and design something. easy to make a page. more difficult to make a useful site. If anyone has any ideas let me know. pm's get to me.

when it is up and running it will be www.noclownsinacube.net The .com and .org extensions will forward to the site.

i am willing to put up some money--not asking for that. All i hope is that people send letters.

sully
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Post by sully » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:19 pm

Have YOU sent your letter yet? lol. get e.mailing!

sully
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Post by sully » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:54 pm

The latest letter. Hopefully you will participate.
---------------------------------------------------------
10/02/06



Mr. Kenneth T. Hall
Sr. Vice President, Merchandising
PetSmart, Inc.
19601 North 27th Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85027

Dear Mr. Hall,
I visited your website this afternoon. It was my first visit in two weeks. Once again I read you POP signage with great fascination. I would like to share what I saw.

Angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare): PetSmart signage defines this species as a 4” fish. The reality of it is that it is a 6” fish. PetSmart calls for a 20+ gallon tank. Respected fish sites call for something about twice that size.

Here is a brief description of other requirements excerpted from fishbase.org: One of the most popular of all the tropical aquarium fish. Maximum length 15 cm TL (Ref. 7020). Aquarium keeping: in groups of 5 or more individuals; keep pairs in small tanks for breeding; minimum aquarium size 100 cm (Ref. 51539).

Tin Foil barb (Puntius schwanefeldii): PetSmart calls this an 8” fish suitable for a 20+ gallon tank. Respected fish sites frequently list this fish as between 12” and 14” Standard Length (excluding the caudal fin, or tail). The 20 gallon tanks I saw at PetSmart were approximately 12” deep. The fish would not have enough room to turn around in that size tank (once again Fishbase.org is utilized for size reference).

Additional research will reveal that like the angel fish it is best kept in groups. With this species 5 or more. And, with any luck one of your staff will discover that some “experts” have suggested this fish not be sold for the typical home aquarium. The fish is an incredibly powerful swimmer and as a result there is some suggestion that this fish is best kept in public aquariums where they will have the space required to maintain appropriate health.

Black Ghost Knife (Apteronotus albifrons): Finally you are close (I am defaulting to Total Length provided by fishbase.org—other sites that study the fish have gone as high as 24”). You are only 2” off. But, a 30+ gallon tank? I did a quick measurement of some tanks of between 29-50 gallons at your store and discovered they were only 12”-18” in depth. Once again—tanks too narrow for the fish to turn. A fish of this size is inadequately housed in even a 75-125 gallon tank.

Green/Turquoise Severum (Heros Severus): PetSmart calls this a 6” fish that can be housed in a 20+ gallon tank. For consistency I will use fishbase.org once again. Their call on Standard Length (without the tail) is 7.874”—Let’s round off to 8”. Now add in the tail (I keep several Heros sp. so I am very comfortable with 2-2 1/2” of tail being considered. Maybe even a bit more). How does that remotely make the fish ok in a 12” deep tank?

The last POP sign, for today.

Red Bellied Pacu (Colossoma macropomum): PetSmart calls this a 24” fish suitable for a 30+ gallon tank. The reality of it is that this fish grows to 42”+ and is in no way, shape or form suitable for any of the aquariums I saw in your store. Why? None of the tanks there were deep enough (front to back) to fit this fish.

I have attached a copy of my first letter to you discussing two species stocked by PetSmart (in the event the original and e.mail copies were misplaced). As you can see it is disturbing. Consumers deserve accuracy and honesty in advertising. I hope that your staff will be able to rectify the errors that have mistakenly crept into your signage.

PetSmart Charities does so much to help save the lives of misplaced and/or abandoned pets. PetSmart Charities does so much to promote the welfare of animals and pets. I would hate to think that image would be tarnished by inadvertent errors at the PetSmart store level. Or, is there a basis, or resource hobbyists are not aware of that support the radically smaller sizes PetSmart defines?

I am looking forward to your response.

Respectfully,

enclosure

cc. Robert F. Moran
Barbara Fitzgerald
Mary Miller
-----------------------------------------------------

Use snail mail or e. mail (corpcommunications@ssg.petsmart.com). Or both--lol.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:43 pm

next time I get the chance I'll take a wander through my local PS...with my phone...and cruise the fish signs. 8)

sully
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Post by sully » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:48 pm

anyone else that wants to get into lurid cell phone photography is welcom to. There is an effort being organized to make an attempt to define all the in-store signage at PS realating to fish. Take the pjotos. Let me know and i will get you an address to e.mail them to or FTP them directly.

sully
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Post by sully » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:13 pm

Just some thoughts.

A thread on this topic exists on a growing number of boards. It has been interesting reading some of the posts in those threads. I thought I would share something that sort of sums up the why's behind the approach being taken, it is a post made in a thread where the discussion has addressed several concerns and thoughts. I want to share it because I think the topics covered are really in most peoples minds.

---------------------
There is a group of about 15 people working on getting some activities planned and organized. Members of the group come from several of the on-line boards. I am sure some of the people here have seen the topic posted elsewhere.

We appreciate the thoughts and feedback given in the threads. We do make use of them. We are also asking you to send letters to PetSmart.

Maybe a little background will help understand why the effort is even being taken.

Like many here i have been involved in on-line communities for years. During that time i have learned to avoid the threads that simply bash the retailers. I always figured that if it bothered people that much they should do something other than moan to one another. I stumbled into one of those threads a couple of weeks back. I had written the first letter a few days earlier so I shared that in the thread. People enjoyed it, we talked about it, we got a few other boards involved. And, the feedback has been encouraging. Hopefully letters have been being sent--lol.

A fairly typical set of question has been:

"Why PetSmart?" Because they are obviously a company that cares. They are obviously a company that strives to keep tanks clean and livestock as healthy as possible in the store environment. They are obviously a company committed to promoting responsible Pet Husbandry (90% of their Charity dollars are directly returned to pet welfare. Maybe Red Cross ought to take notes on how to do the same). They are a national presence. They are a leader in the market.

I have been reminded of one of PetSmarts competitors making a comment years ago along the lines of "we are here to sell pets--not cure them" (Not an exact quote). PetSmart obviously realizes the need for the opposite approach--Look at the Banefield brand of vets in their stores.

Why not all retailers?" If you get a leader to embrace the concept others will follow. There is a competetive advantage for PetSmart to set the pace. And, from a pragmatic view they are convenient. It is far easier to effect a change with a single retailer than it is to effect an industry wide change. It is the simple one-step-at-time philosophy. Basically crawl, walk, run. A lot of energy and effort can be expended chasing after all the national, regional, and local stores. Flailing madly about will be a waste of much of that. Focused effort and energy holds a better chance of positive results.

"What about all the other things they do wrong, selling pH down, bacteria in a bottle that does not work, high priced water conditioners containing compounds of questionable value,.....?" That involves other business decisions--yes, they are in business. POP Signage is an easy target. It is printed and reprinted with regularity. It is a standard part of an ongoing business practice. It is already budgeted for. All the other stuff gets into fundamental changes in business practice, stocking units, and store profits at the very least. It is tough to tackle all those issues at one time...back to the crawl, walk run theory.

And, since responsible husbandry starts with the aquarium we have and how it is stocked POP information is the baseline for all the other issues. Basically it is an approach that starts with step one of fish care.

At the same time it recognizes that everyone of us will make the choice on how to stock a tank. We have responsibilities of our own as fshkeepers practicing responsible husbandry. The only way people can learn to be responsible is through the use of accurate information. Some of which is the responsibility of a reseller to provide. Some of which is the responsibility of fishkeepers to seek out.

This is getting long winded--as many of my posts do. Like I said, about 15 people are planing and organizing several areas of activity that are required to give this effort a realistic chance of success. We will keep people informed. But, nothing we do will work without your support--and help.

All we ask is you take a few minutes to send an e.mail or snail mail. Write a letter (even copy one of the above). We want to keep the message on target--we hope you agree with the message and the approach.

Remember PetSmart is an excellent organization. Trying to do what is right. We are just trying to nicely help then realize something needs a change.

Thanks for your help and support.

------------------------
btw Shari2 has volunteered to help. thank you shari.
Last edited by sully on Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DRLashambe
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Post by DRLashambe » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:43 pm

I actually made a direct phone call to complain about my local petsmart putting goldfish in with the tropical fish (they say it is because they are trying to solve their snail problem). I got a call from the store manager who told me that petsmart vets told them it is okay. A company that cares? They're actually torturing fish to death. I'd call it Evil if they weren't doing out of pure stupidity.

I bought a spotted puffer at their store that was listed as a dwarf puffer and listed as being a community fish: the puffer killed one of my clowns.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:12 pm

This is EXACTLY why we are trying to get some changes made in the store signs. Employees will be less likely to give wrong advice if they are facing a sign that says exactly the opposite of what they are trying to tell you (I hope).

The old phrase, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies to this effort. We can all bash away, but it won't likely matter much to the people who put those WRONG signs and back up blatantly wrong fishkeeping advice with print. Of all the nasty chain lfs's these seem to be the most 'publicly' animal friendly and they back up that claim in cash through their charities. What we are hoping to do is to get them to apply that 'animal friendly' attitude to their fish departments. This little campaign is specific, and focused at that one particular, relatively easy (read that -'doesn't affect their bottom line too much') Point of Purchase sign issue. If we can get some notice and change made THERE, we will have gone a step in the right direction and the next step will fall into place. (well-hopefully ;-))

michaelb
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Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:44 pm

Thanks Sully for posting that last one. Keeps it all in perspective..clear and consice, just the way it's needed. I hope everyone realizes that we CAN affect change, positive change to boot!! Keep on rolling!

sully
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Post by sully » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:23 am

shari,
thinking of copy, i posted a link to a few web pages at the noclowns...discussion board. if you want to take a look at that and give me any feedback i would appreciate it,

picked up 40 vet tech students to help gather, research and correct species data today. at least we will be able to offer positive, well footnoted, suggestions for signage--lol.

botiaboy
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Post by botiaboy » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:32 pm

What about petco?Theyre way up there too,and i've seen the same misinformations given there.Similar experience to the puffer...I got a freshwater tire track eel-"8 inches,peaceful community fish".Have you ever heard of a community fish that eats your zebra danios?And is there some new system they have where 8 inches=3 feet?I'm writing to Petco.
My loaches:
5 kubotai
5 almorhae
5 kuhli
5 zebra
1 aborichthys

sully
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Post by sully » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:59 pm

botiaboy,
I love the attitude--lol. from one angry man to another--good on ya mate!

The approach being suggested at dozens of boards across the web has had some thought go into it. Very simply PetSmart fits a lot of the criteria utilized to evaluate the likelihood of success.

After a number of retailers were plugged into a grid containing evaluation criteria a "target" decision was made because of the not so insignificant amount effort that will be required--even to convince a retailer that has a lot to gain, and a considerable amount to lose--to pull this off. Everyone involved has a job--or attends university--so time has to be spent wisely.

It is easy to decide to clear the forest. But, to get the job done you have to do it one tree at a time. If we hack away at any number of retailers we will still have the forest. And it will have all of its trees. Once we get one tree to fall we clear a path to get to the others. The plan is not to stop at one. but, we have to start somewhere.

We will have a couple of generic letters at www.noclownsinacube.net later this week (it will take until the end of this week to get that site live) for people like yourself that have experienced the problem--just at other places--and wish to voice support for the concept. Hopefully you check in at the site late this week. Snatch one of those letters and post it to PetSmart.

Give us time to organize and we will continue on with PetCo--that one will be a task! First thing to do though is get a retail leader on our side. And, PetSmart is not that far away from it. They really have a very positive corporate philosophy. With an excellent track record of actively supporting animal welfare and human husbandry. A little positive encouragement should be all it takes.

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