Flouride??

[Graeme McKellar]

Our Local water has Flouride added in minute quantitys and I was wondering if it could have any adverse affects on Loaches given their sensitivity? Does carbon remove it? Does it build-up due to evaporation? It is classed as a Marine Pollutant with a toxic affect on all marine life but in what amounts? Cheers Graeme.

[Jim Powers]

Fluoride is usually fed at a rate of around 1ppm, depending on a few factors. That's the same amount that is found in the ocean. It is also found naturally in many water supplies in that range or even higher. Almost every water supply has some level of naturally occuring fluoride. Water treatment plants merely adjust it to the proper level.
Like many water treatment chemicals, it can be toxic to some degree at very high levels(20+ppm ?) that are nearly impossible to create in a properly maintained water treatment plant due to safety features. The US EPA limits its feed rate in water plants to no more than 4ppm. At this level it is not dangerous.
The body responds to high fluoride levels by excreting the fluoride through urination.
Carbon does not remove it, but reverse osmosis does.
It could increase in concentration, somewhat, through evaporation but water changes would take care of that.
The bottom line is, fluoridation in a public water supply is not a problem for aquarium fish or humans for that matter.

[angelfish83]

Fluoride is usually fed at a rate of around 1ppm

Nope. Momfish will back me up on this. These days its not likely to be much over 0.4

1ppm is recognized as the maximum safe amount of fluoride in the human body.

You get fluoride from a lot of stuff. Some softdrinks, tea, some coffees, toothpaste...

The fluoride won't do them any favors but it won't hurt them at those concentrations.

[angelfish83]

it can be toxic to some degree at very high levels(20+ppm ?)

Please don't randomly state statistics that came out of nowhere.
5ppm could easily kill a child.

20ppm would be a corpse with green pustules and internal bleeding melting away into a puddle of mud that would be so toxic even the houseflies would run for cover...

Fluoride was initially marketed as rat and people stomach poison!!!

[/i]

[Jim Powers]

Well, actually fluoride is fed at a rate of 1ppm(.7-1.2) in the US(depending on the region). I know this because I deal with water fluoridation as a fluoridation consulatant for a state health agency with a nationally acclaimed water fluoridation program.
As far as 5ppm killing a baby, well we are not talking about babies here. I have not heard what a toxic level is for babies is, but they are supposed to receive lower levels(dependant on body wt.) of fluoride in their drinking water until the age of 4 primarily to prevent fluorosis (mottling) of the enamel of pre-errupted teeth.
School fluoridation programs in which a school's water system is fluoridated do exist and in the past fed fluoride at levels of 4.5 ppm. This increased level was allowed since the children were NOT on community water systems, and were only drinking the water for about 7 hours per day for about 9 months per year. This has since been reduced to 3.5ppm since there are more sources of fluoride. No kids have been killed from this.
Regardless, what we are talking about here is the fluoride effects on the aquarium.
And by the way, 20ppm would not kill a healthy adult. Vomiting and urination would eliminate most of the fluoride . Remember, most toothpaste has about 1000ppm fluoride or more. While swallowing a small amount of the stuff during brushing is not recommended, it would not kill you.
I have been doing this for over 20 years now and have yet to see a legitimate fluoride level in a water system of over 11-12 ppm. And that is EXTREMELY rare, and would be discovered quickly, due to our surveillance program. Of course, I can not
say that is the same in other areas.

[NancyD]

Man, this reminds me of childhood when some people thought fluoridation was a commie plot. I had thought the "red scare" days were over but since moving to MA it seems it is still a controversy in some towns. A good question on possible fish effects though now I'm imagining fishy dentistry...
Nancy

[angelfish83]

Man, this reminds me of childhood when some people thought fluoridation was a commie plot. I had thought the "red scare" days were over but since moving to MA it seems it is still a controversy in some towns. A good question on possible fish effects though now I'm imagining fishy dentistry...
Nancy

Fluoridation IS a conspiracy. Its absolutely pointless. Fluoride being fed at 1.2ppm in water, if that is the case, terrifies me...

4.5 is just horrid.

I have read quite a lot of literature that agrees 1ppm is the safe limit, and that 5ppm basically guarantees cancer at some point in the future.

While there is a significant amount of proof that fluoride is a dangerous compound and should not be consumed, there is NO concrete evidence that fluoride is healthy for any reason, including supposed strengthening of tooth enamel-

as you said it has even been proven to cause fluorosis (brown spots) on teeth
Fluoride is a highly reactive and mutagenic compound. It causes cellular and DNA aberrations...

[Jim Powers]

I have a feeling no explanations would change your mind about water fluoridation so I am not going to waste my time again. If you are concerned about fluoride in your water, drink bottled water....oh wait...that often has fluoride too.
Drink distilled water or get yourself a reverse osmosis filter and let the rest of us enjoy the benefits of fluoridation.
For those without conspiracy theories dancing in their heads, this is a good overview.
http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety.htm

[The Kapenta Kid]

I wouldn't put too much trust in Angel's statements or numbers here.
He was ranting recently about Fluorine being a component of steel slag, and how the former CEO of Kaiser or USS had persuaded the US govt that it was good for your teeth so the govt paid to clean up slag heaps that otherwise would have been liabilities.
There is only so much of this stuff that you can take

[NancyD]

NO, no, Jim I am in support of water fluoridation. Many more people, throughout history & prehistory, have died from poor oral health (& poor water quality too) than lived long enough to die from cancer. I thought it funny: years ago--leftist plot, now-- right wing conspiracy.
Nancy

[Jim Powers]

I think those who are against it tend to use whatever works at the time whether its a commie plot or a right wing conspiracy. Go figure.
The postive results of that are the huge amounts of research that have been done on the subject.

[Graeme McKellar]

Thanks for your answers Jim. I spoke to the operater at our Water Treatment Plant who said they dosed at a rate of 0.8 - 1.0 PPM. He also said if I came to the plant I could get water before it was dosed with Flouride or Chlorine but suggested a small dose of chlorine be added and left for 12 hours to kill any nastys then neutralised before use. Cheers Graeme.

[angelfish83]

I wouldn't put too much trust in Angel's statements or numbers here.
He was ranting recently about Fluorine being a component of steel slag, and how the former CEO of Kaiser or USS had persuaded the US govt that it was good for your teeth so the govt paid to clean up slag heaps that otherwise would have been liabilities.
There is only so much of this stuff that you can take

its TRUUUUUE MANNNN

[The Kapenta Kid]

I wouldn't put too much trust in Angel's statements or numbers here.
He was ranting recently about Fluorine being a component of steel slag, and how the former CEO of Kaiser or USS had persuaded the US govt that it was good for your teeth so the govt paid to clean up slag heaps that otherwise would have been liabilities.
There is only so much of this stuff that you can take

its TRUUUUUE MANNNN

You know, I'd consider believing you if you could advance any proof of your contention that fluorine or its compounds can be or ever have been produced from steel industry slags or wastes. But until you do I think its untruuue.