Aggressive yoyo loaches?

[ey]

Hi, I've known for a fact that yoyo loaches are semi-aggressive but by getting a group of them, the aggressiveness should spread out somewhat.

I have 7 yoyo loaches and 8 clown loaches in my 100 gallon tank.

The yoyos range from 1.5" to 2.5" and the clowns range from 1.5" to 3".

Other fish in the tank include:

- Cardinals
- Zebra Danios
- Rummynoses
- Platties
- Bristlenoses (2 adults, 2 juveniles)
- Cories

Tank has been established and running for 9 months now, water stats are healthy and stable (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 15 nitrate, 6.6 pH) and before this week, I haven't lost a fish since May.

In the last week, I've lost 3 danios and a platty. My rummynoses have completely lost its eye. The bodies of the danios and platty were all torn apart by the time I found them. At first, I suspected it might have been the BNs causing these deaths (as I've once seen the BN chew on a danio once), but it seems now it might be the yoyos that are killing all the fish.

Apparently, BNs are usually quite placid and it would be hard to imagine how a BN could catch a danio.

It may be due to the yoyos not being fed enough, hence looking elsewhere for food.

Is there anything I can do now apart from taking the yoyos out? I have a smaller 29G tank, but that wont fit the yoyos.

Do you think it is the yoyos that are causing these deaths? If so, do you have suggestions as to how I can resolve this? I guess I could feed them more, so then they wont have to feed off the other fish, but I currently feed them once a day and fast the fish one day of the week.

I feed them a mixture of flakes, hikari wafers and tetrabit granules.

If its not the yoyos that are causing this, what else could it be? I honestly don't believe it is a disease of any sort.

Thanks for reading, will appreciate any suggestions.


ey

[Emma Turner]

Hi ey,

Yo-yos are pretty fiesty, and personally I would not be keeping them with slow moving placid fish like the Corydoras, as they are just a sitting target. I would re-home those sooner rather than later if you can.

Others will no doubt have differing opinions on this, but I also wouldn't keep small peaceful tetras such as the cardinals and rummynose in with the Yo-yos either. They are more than capable of giving them continual harrassment which will stress and even kill them. Better choices of dither fish would be more robust fast-swimming medium sized barbs, danios, rasboras, or 'deeper-bodied' tetra species.

The Bristlenose will not be the culprit behind any fish deaths, but they will feast on the bodies of dead fish. Many people then assume that they have caught them 'in the act' when in fact it is just snacking on something that has already died.

The frequency that you are feeding would seem ok, but it is obviously difficult to quantify on the internet just how much you are putting in each time. The loaches would definitely benefit from some (defrosted) frozen foods two or three times per week, as their natural diet is insect larvae and the like. Try and get hold of some mosquito larvae (bloodworm, white mosquito larvae, blackworms) and some brineshrimp and try them with it. Giving them dried foods 100% of the time really isn't natural for them.

Do you have plenty of hiding places witin the tank? i.e. more than one per loach? If not, this could be causing a bit of trouble and causing the fish to roam about a bit more, hassling the smaller fish.

If the problems are down to the Yo-yos, it could be happening at night or in the early hours. You could try adding a blue moon tube to the tank so that you can observe them in dimmer light conditions, after the main lights have been switched off.

Hope this helps,

Emma

[crazy loaches]

I have not myself noticed any aggression between my yoyos and cories. I have only a pair of yoyo's since 1 died a while ago and I have not replaced him yet. The yoyo's chase each other sometimes, and every once in a while might chase other botia's but thats the only aggression I have seen, and usually they are quite passive. These fish can vary in personality though. I will not keep aggressive fish in my tank and ones that show aggression are either given away or back to the lfs - as I did with skunks and tigers.

[shari2]

Fwiw, I have also kept yoyos with corys and never noticed any agression between them...

[angelfish83]

I wanted yo yos for my loach tank but I decided on Rostrata Histrionica and Striata because they are relatively peaceful

[mikev]

I find it a bit difficult to believe in aggressive yoyo's.
Clumsy and not accomodating with other fish -- this is every time. But repeatedly killing smaller fish sounds very strange.

Some places, including LiveAquaria, indeed use the semi-aggressive label for yoyo's ... the same as for the skunks... unfair.

The bodies of the danios and platty were all torn apart by the time I found them.

May it be that there is some equipment in the tank that kills the fish?
(I so far found three different ways a powerhead can kill a fish, some filters can do funny things too.)

[Graeme Robson]

I find the Botia almorhae is a loach that sit's on the boarder-line of aggression. There are many factors to consider. Smaller groups can often make them feel vulnerable and therefor not show any Real aggression to others. Larger groups are a different matter, with them acting bold and comfortable with their environment. Feedings can also be include to there action within the aquarium. I know someone who had there Rasboras taking out by a group of Almorhae's and the reasons where the feedings. Flake and freezed dried foods once a day. Go figure! I personally would say, that these are indeed 'feisty' and a good balanced diet is required. Especially Protein foods.

[Wendie]

I've been keeping some baby ABN's in with my Yo Yo's for several months now without a problem. They've been curious a couple times but have done nothing more than just check them out. The babies were under an inch at the time.

[Martin Thoene]

Others will no doubt have differing opinions on this, but I also wouldn't keep small peaceful tetras such as the cardinals and rummynose in with the Yo-yos either.

Afraid I have to be in that camp Emma

My experience with Yoyos was nothing but good. I had 5 Clowns, 3 yoyos, 4 striata, in with 10 (I think it was) adult wild-caught Cardinal tetras in a 90 gal tank when I was in England.

The Loaches all slept together. During the day, the species did their own thing, although the striata would hang with the Yoyos at times. Particularly at feeding times, the Yoyos would grey out and scrap with one another....lots of clicking.....but they never bothered anyone else.

Funnily enough.....as an aside.....I introduced a small Black Ghost Knifefish into this mix which grew to 10" in no time. So the Cardinals were lunch right?

Wrong.....he never touched them While being extremely voracious and sucking up JMC catfish pellets like a Black Hole, it never even looked at the tetras. Used to sleep in the loach bundle in the bogwood as well.

After about 6 months, I introduced 6 amazingly coloured Sunset Platies for a bit of pizzaz. He killed them all in 3 days, biting big chunks out of their bellies. Looked like a classic shark bite. I think they assess their initial environment with their electrical radar. Anything in it is "furniture" and ignored. Introduce something new.....lunch!

Bit off-topic there, but certainly the Yoyos were model citizens. I have to wonder wether tank size, feeding regime and other factors have a bearing on behavioural traits or if it might be a genetic predispoition to terrorism in some populations? Your mileage may vary is certainly relevant.

Martin.

[ey]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies.

Emma, I've feed more to the yoyos in the last 2 days, I went out to get some bloodworm, mosquito larvae and brine shrimp.

The problem may come down to lack of hiding spots. Currently, I have 3 pieces of driftwood, some artificial ornaments, terracotta pots and a massive pvc pipe for the clowns. But I feel the yoyos constantly fighting for hiding spots. The pvc pipe and pots are occupied by the clowns while the driftwoods are shared by the yoyos, though the yoyos don't seem to stay still for long in their territory, they chase each other round all day long.

I also think the attacks may be occuring late at night when the lights are out. This is when the tetras are at their most vulnerable. I forgot to include in my initial post that I found a dead Bristle nose (2" juvenile that I've had for 7 months now) after coming home from work last week. Its (black) body was missing, all that remained was the white skeleton or whatever it was...it was disgusting!

I can rehouse the cories, but it might be hard to relocate all the tetras. I'm surprised I've lost 2 danios, any fish that can chase and kill a danio is a pretty good predator!

I'll keep an eye out on the fish this week and hope I wont lose any more!

I just checked on the fish and the 100g tank seems to have a very foul odour/smell compared to the 29g tank (which doesn't stink). I searched everywhere for a dead fish but couldn't find one, what could cause the odour? It smells like "Prime", if anyone uses that they will know what I mean. However, I just changed the water today so the water stats should be OK.

[ey]

I find it a bit difficult to believe in aggressive yoyo's.
Clumsy and not accomodating with other fish -- this is every time. But repeatedly killing smaller fish sounds very strange.

Some places, including LiveAquaria, indeed use the semi-aggressive label for yoyo's ... the same as for the skunks... unfair.

The bodies of the danios and platty were all torn apart by the time I found them.

May it be that there is some equipment in the tank that kills the fish?
(I so far found three different ways a powerhead can kill a fish, some filters can do funny things too.)

mikev, thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure it isn't any equipment in the tank killing the fish. I haven't added any new equipment (filter, powerhead etc) since May, and all fish including some platty fry have not been effected by the filters in the tank. I am pretty sure it is either a disease in the tank or someone killing all the small fish. The latter appears more likely.

I find it strange that yoyos would kill small fish. The yoyos have been in the tank and with the other tetra species for close to 9 months now and during this time, there has been no signs of killings. Its interesting how its happened in the last 2 weeks. I have been feeding relatively less in the last 2 weeks (tank was starting to get really dirty when changing the water) so is it possible that the starved yoyos have turned to other fish as a source of food?

[ey]

I find the Botia almorhae is a loach that sit's on the boarder-line of aggression. There are many factors to consider. Smaller groups can often make them feel vulnerable and therefor not show any Real aggression to others. Larger groups are a different matter, with them acting bold and comfortable with their environment. Feedings can also be include to there action within the aquarium. I know someone who had there Rasboras taking out by a group of Almorhae's and the reasons where the feedings. Flake and freezed dried foods once a day. Go figure! I personally would say, that these are indeed 'feisty' and a good balanced diet is required. Especially Protein foods.

Hey Graeme, thanks for the reply. I always thought that there would be more aggression shown in smaller groups of yoyos, while in larger groups, that aggression spreads out (similar theory to cichlids).

Could you please explain further about the diet regime in order to maintain a healthy and balanced diet for the yoyos? Were the "flake and freezed dried foods once a day" too unbalanced?

What would you suggest I feed them so they wont get nasty and kill other fish to eat?

Thanks.

[ey]

I forgot to mention that I also noticed one of the bronze cory's face fully bashed last night. His eyes and face was all white and swollen, similar to what a fish would look like with dropsy. It was struggling and not knowing the cause, I immediately moved him to the 29g tank with the other cories.

I checked him this morning and he was swimming and eating again like normal. He seemed to have lost one eye, but when I checked later this evening, it appeared again....so maybe its eyes were damaged.

I'm tempted to return all the yoyos back to the LFS but I've kept them for so long....not sure what to do.

If there is an easier way to solve this (such as having a more balanced feeding pattern) that would be great.

The story so far appears to be...that not all the yoyos come to the food during feeding time. Half of them will come to eat while the other half will still be playing hide and seek with each other. As they have missed out on their share of food during feeding, they starve and at night, they kill other fish to eat?

[Emma Turner]

Afraid I have to be in that camp Emma

My experience with Yoyos was nothing but good. I had 5 Clowns, 3 yoyos, 4 striata, in with 10 (I think it was) adult wild-caught Cardinal tetras in a 90 gal tank when I was in England.

I had a group of 5 in a 4.5ft tank which were nothing but trouble. I obviously gave them plenty of hiding spots and a varied diet etc etc but they were rather nasty. They all got to around 4-5" before I rehomed them.
Working in the trade we've heard lots of stories about them, some good, some bad. It would appear that these fish have differing personalities and our favourite saying 'your mileage may vary' definitely applies here. Remember that the comments that are seen here are a teeny teeny snippet of the people who have kept these fish, so to those reading this it is best to advise caution and observe yours closely to see how they get on.
Emma

[Graeme Robson]

I'm going with the personal views on which what i personally see within my aquarium, (loach wise) like many others we have our own experiences. If you keep two and three different species of fish with only small groups like 2 or 3, then it's natural for them to feel insecure, especially if they are a social fish. Like many social fish, they feel more secure in larger groups. Hence the outcome of boldness.

Unbalanced foods are always using commercial dried foods everyday.

Live/frozen foods balance this with alternating the two each day.

It's always best to feed Loaches just before 'lights out'