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H3D
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Post by H3D » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:05 pm

shari2 wrote:This whole thing started with outrage. It's still raging. Clearly assumptions were made based on the the link Martin posted to neo's thread over at FishGeeks ("where your fish are #1"). If you'll notice, the response over there to his post was also immediate concern.

Are you saying we here, and fogducker et all at FishGeeks are wrong to be affected the way we are? Though I am attempting to defend his right to do as he sees fit with his fish, I do think that it is not surprising that his post was seen as somewhat inflammatory. Based on the philosophy of fishkeeping that most here espouse, and which you say is similar to yours, the images clearly show a highly overstocked, bare glass box. Not what most here (or apparently there) see as 'fishkeeping'.

Granted, we don't know him. He's only showing 5 posts at FG. He may have a huge following elsewhere, and certainly is better known by some than either at FG or here. Could we have asked a zillion questions and come up with a better understanding of who he is and what his plans are for the fish? Sure. Did we come down on him hard? Um, yeah.

However, seeing that he is an experienced fishkeeper who still chooses to keep fish the way those pics display...well, it seems to me irresponsible. And his purpose, as he states was, 'i just want to show something diffrent... something that can be done... ' Yeah, he's doing it. That's the problem. We could show how it COULD be done in lots of ways that aren't optimal, but SHOULD we?

And, he can defend himself if he chooses to do so, and could have replied here with a bit of explanation or attempted to justify his 'feeder fish' setup. He hasn't. But a couple of his 'homey's' show up and start insulting people here for not reading his mind, or knowing his plans. And you call us rude? You don't like our less than accepting attitude, or the fact that we'd expect a guy who clearly knows something about fishkeeping to have some interest in the environment HE provides for them to live in, or the quality of life they experience there.

If he is at all interested in the outrage his post has incited HE should speak up. YOU should take your insults back and let HIM worry about whether he gives a sh*t about what any of us here say. So far, it seems he had more fun just playing the troll role. Your attempt at defending him shows you care, but not about the fish, just about his reputation at a board where he does not participate. I doubt he cares as much as you do. So WHY are you all over us?

and btw, insulting Emma's fish store was a low blow. Have you bothered to ask HER any questions? Do you have any idea of her setup or plans for HER fish?

feh. So you can defend neo. That's nice. Let's go back to talking about fish. Specifically loaches. And why you don't keep them in a bare box.

Frankly, to me fish are nice. They are facinating, fun, and I find keeping them enjoyable (most of the time 8) ), but they are FISH. People are more important to me. When people get all worked up over some A**hole's treatment of them I prefer to step back, think, 'yeah, he's a b*tthead' and move on. It isn't my job, or anyone else's job to educate a person who is set in his/her ways and isn't interested in my advice/experience/thoughts. Don't waste my time. Neo does not want to hear from us. YOU talk to him.

...................

Oh. And just because clowns get large, it doesn't make them monsterfishtank appropriate.
I have read all threads posted on this topic and this is the only one were I have seen any "outrage". I have not once approved of this tank or the fish in it. I was not attacking Emma's store I was merely making a comparison. I am not here to defend neo, as he can defend himself. I posted on this topic because I feel that LOL alienates many of those who would like to post here because of the attitudes of some. Some here consider themselves to be "better" fish keepers and rightly so, however there is no need to make others feel like they are lesser than you to get a point across. You say that you are not here to educate. If LOL is not setup to help educate others than why is it a public board? Why do you give out advice? I have read this board religiously for years and do not post here because of the treatment I see go on here. I was merely pointing out that if some constructive criticism was given out instead of insults this board would be a far friendlier place to come to. And if all of you really cared about the treatment of loaches this is what you would desire.

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Post by Graeme Robson » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:20 pm

H3D, Tell me/us who would feel alienated in posting here. Your just using assumptions and basically showing us that your attitude is the wrong one. I wonder why? :wink:
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Post by Primus » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:28 pm

Martin Thoene wrote:As far as I'm concerned, most of the people on Monster Fishkeepers just turn the hobby into an aquatic p*ssing contest. This guy's just trying to up the ante.

I find it all quite childish actually.

Martin.
There are too many quotes i could make from some of the responses in this thread. The one above pretty much says it all, this kind of generalization is rediculous, would you say all muslims are terrorists?

I dont condone the tank that this thread was refering to. I frequently read both Monsterfishkeepers and this LOL forum. I can tell you that the majority of fish keepers from MFK keep large tanks so their fish can have a suitable environment to live in.

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Post by sophie » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:29 pm

can I just say that as one of the newer members here, I have found LOL to have pretty consistently the brightest and most useful contributors about, and also the one of the nicer atmospheres I've come across (on the fish forums, anyway; I like an argument on the OT forum as much as the next person :lol:).

It's got a fairly small number of contributors because of the specialist content, not because the old-guard are unpleasant.
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Post by shari2 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:36 pm

I posted on this topic because I feel that LOL alienates many of those who would like to post here because of the attitudes of some. Some here consider themselves to be "better" fish keepers and rightly so, however there is no need to make others feel like they are lesser than you to get a point across.
I'm sorry you feel this way and have to say that sometimes I see what you mean. I have said before that we are not the 'loach police', and people who come here with questions etc. should be treated with respect.
You say that you are not here to educate.
You may have misunderstood me. What I said was, "It isn't my job, or anyone else's job to educate a person who is set in his/her ways and isn't interested in my advice/experience/thoughts."
I have read this board religiously for years and do not post here because of the treatment I see go on here. I was merely pointing out that if some constructive criticism was given out instead of insults this board would be a far friendlier place to come to.
As I said, point taken. And I agree with you that sometimes people here go over the top, or are not always diplomatic. That said, I personally, do try to be as helpful as possible and refrain from judgment. Though I am human. 8)
And if all of you really cared about the treatment of loaches this is what you would desire.
Friendly is what we usually try to be. Opinionated, yes, maybe more than some places. But this is a somewhat specialized board, and as with other specialized boards, the regulars here do know whereof they speak. We don't know it all, and I think we all know that. It is unfortunate that sometimes dispensing what we do know is perceived as insulting. It is unnecessary and counterproductive to reply to sincere questions with arrogance, or insult. It does happen, and for that I apologize for any role I may have played in it. It does not need to and we should perhaps be more aware of this issue you have raised.

Nevertheless, this thread started because Martin noticed neo's post elsewhere, and as it related to loaches, he posted it here. The initial responses I would classify as outrage, though I see you disagree. neo wasn't asking for our opinion, but he posted on a public forum, and as such his post was public. Posting it here certainly did open a can of worms. :lol:

There was no request for advice here, just loachkeepers venting, and then others defending what was perceived here as one more example of the lack of understanding of loach needs. And it got insulting on both sides.

Thanks for trying to keep at it in spite of it all. :roll:

And thanks sophie 8)
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Post by Primus » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:41 pm

angelfish83 wrote:Exactly. To put it very bluntly and sort of childishly, if I may-

If you don't like it here, go back to monster fish keepers.

There are two very different philosophies at work here between our two forums and I don't think anyone is going to get anyone else to appologize for their viewpoint.
I'll pick one more i suppose. From what i have seen this is 100% not true of the majority of MFK and LOL users, most just love keeping fish and want to do it in a fashion that is best suited to their fish. Im not sure why you would make such a broad statement but it makes no sense.

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Post by H3D » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:59 pm

Graeme Robson wrote:H3D, Tell me/us who would feel alienated in posting here. Your just using assumptions and basically showing us that your attitude is the wrong one. I wonder why? :wink:
I for one feel this way and I am not alone. I am not making assumptions. LOL has reputation that precedes it. How have I showed you my attitude was the wrong one by wanting LOL to be a site were more users feel comfortable coming to for information. I love this site and I refer the AC board members to come here for info every chance I get. Yet how will its tens of thousands of members feel coming here for advice when you publicly attack its administration. Not to mention all the other boards that neo owns. You are just not getting it. You have tried to publicly humilate someone who spends a great deal of his resources to help others. Now when people from these boards need sound advice about their loaches do you think they will feel comfortable coming here?

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Post by H3D » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:10 pm

shari2 wrote:Friendly is what we usually try to be. Opinionated, yes, maybe more than some places. But this is a somewhat specialized board, and as with other specialized boards, the regulars here do know whereof they speak. We don't know it all, and I think we all know that. It is unfortunate that sometimes dispensing what we do know is perceived as insulting. It is unnecessary and counterproductive to reply to sincere questions with arrogance, or insult. It does happen, and for that I apologize for any role I may have played in it. It does not need to and we should perhaps be more aware of this issue you have raised.

Nevertheless, this thread started because Martin noticed neo's post elsewhere, and as it related to loaches, he posted it here. The initial responses I would classify as outrage, though I see you disagree. neo wasn't asking for our opinion, but he posted on a public forum, and as such his post was public. Posting it here certainly did open a can of worms. :lol:

There was no request for advice here, just loachkeepers venting, and then others defending what was perceived here as one more example of the lack of understanding of loach needs. And it got insulting on both sides.

Thanks for trying to keep at it in spite of it all. :roll:

And thanks sophie 8)
shari2 thank you for understanding. It was never my intention to anger or attack any of them members of this board. Nor was it my intention to defend neo's actions. My intent was to get everyone to realize that they were not just insulting some guy, but that they were insulting someone who represents thousands and thousands of others. In doing so you are alienating the members of those sites who do not understand why you are making such statements. I know sometimes that we see things that can be very upsetting, however it could have been handled in a more mature and productive way.

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Post by Graeme Robson » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:15 pm

H3D wrote:
Graeme Robson wrote:H3D, Tell me/us who would feel alienated in posting here. Your just using assumptions and basically showing us that your attitude is the wrong one. I wonder why? :wink:
I for one feel this way and I am not alone. I am not making assumptions. LOL has reputation that precedes it. How have I showed you my attitude was the wrong one by wanting LOL to be a site were more users feel comfortable coming to for information. I love this site and I refer the AC board members to come here for info every chance I get. Yet how will its tens of thousands of members feel coming here for advice when you publicly attack its administration. Not to mention all the other boards that neo owns. You are just not getting it. You have tried to publicly humilate someone who spends a great deal of his resources to help others. Now when people from these boards need sound advice about their loaches do you think they will feel comfortable coming here?
1194 members and counting, under 12 months really makes your claims look rather pathetic!
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Post by shari2 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:15 pm

Wait a minute H3D.

Are you saying that neo gets to post whatever/however he wants and should be above criticism? Why? Because he is 'famous' elsewhere, or the admin of a large board? I appreciate your loyalty to him and am sure he has quite a following and many admirers. However, does that mean that everything he says is gospel, unquestionably true and sacrosanct? Are all his comments thoughtful, considerate and kind? Never any insulting overtones based on the fact that he knows 'better' than others? Not from what I've seen since I've been looking around a bit. But that's not the point.

The fact that we don't like his post on FishGeeks should not disqualify us from ever being useful to anyone else seeking advice about loaches. If it does, and if it stops you from referring folks here, that would be too bad. Meanwhile, if they google 'loaches' they may end up here anyway...
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Post by H3D » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:16 pm

Graeme Robson wrote:1194 members and counting, under 12 months really makes your claims look rather pathetic. Don't you think!


Why does this make my claim look pathatic? Why do you have to insult me? How many of these were previous members before the site change? 1200 members is great, but I think LOL could have tens of thousands of members if not more as it is the best source of loach knowledge on the internet.

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Post by shari2 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:20 pm

...they were insulting someone who represents thousands and thousands of others...
You know H3D, just because I frequent this forum and post here does not mean that I think that Jeff Shafer, or Martin Thoene, or Emma Turner or any of the other moderators 'represent' me. Are you sure that is an accurate assessment?
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Post by shari2 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:23 pm

1200 members is great, but I think LOL could have tens of thousands of members if not more as it is the best source of loach knowledge on the internet.
Something to remember here which may help keep things in perspective is that AC attempts to cover EVERYTHING aquatic. Thus the huge membership. LOL does not attempt to do any such thing. Loaches are a small niche in the aquatic world, 'tens of thousands' of members EVER is highly unlikely unless we decide to go much more generic...which I don't think is currently in the plan.
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Post by Graeme Robson » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:23 pm

H3D wrote:
Graeme Robson wrote:1194 members and counting, under 12 months really makes your claims look rather pathetic. Don't you think!


Why does this make my claim look pathatic? Why do you have to insult me? How many of these were previous members before the site change? 1200 members is great, but I think LOL could have tens of thousands of members if not more as it is the best source of loach knowledge on the internet.
If you wish to claim them as insults, then so be it. Your insulting behavior on how this web-site is ran is your style. (btw learn to spell) :roll:
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Post by H3D » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:26 pm

shari2 wrote:Wait a minute H3D.

Are you saying that neo gets to post whatever/however he wants and should be above criticism? Why? Because he is 'famous' elsewhere, or the admin of a large board? I appreciate your loyalty to him and am sure he has quite a following and many admirers. However, does that mean that everything he says is gospel, unquestionably true and sacrosanct? Are all his comments thoughtful, considerate and kind? Never any insulting overtones based on the fact that he knows 'better' than others? Not from what I've seen since I've been looking around a bit. But that's not the point.

The fact that we don't like his post on FishGeeks should not disqualify us from ever being useful to anyone else seeking advice about loaches. If it does, and if it stops you from referring folks here, that would be too bad. Meanwhile, if they google 'loaches' they may end up here anyway...
By all means no. In fact we have given him some criticism on his own board. What I said was that you should give constructive criticism about his tank and not attack him as a person. I just think that in personally attacking him you may be alienating others. If fish geeks does not like the post then they reserve the right to delete it, but they are not doing that. I will always refer folks here as you have proven time and time again how much you all care about loaches; however that does not mean that this advice will be taken.

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