loach newbie help

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kelleyfish
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loach newbie help

Post by kelleyfish » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:29 pm

Ok, I just love my loach and I've only had him for a few days and the more I read the more I'm afraid I'm doing wrong. Here's my #1 concern. He gets in one of the caves in my (fake) lava rock. I was shaking him out until today when I read that this is normal and that they are easily stressed. Do I need to worry about him getting stuck in there? Should I plug some of the smaller holes with something? Also, I have a 29 gallon tank and 1 loach. From what I've read I should get 2 more but I don't think my tank is big enough. Will 1 more be ok, I don't want him to be lonely and I don't want to return him because he is so cool. I appreciate any advice. Thanks!

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:00 pm

You did not mention what kind of loach it is (assumption: clown) and how big it is (no way to know).

Hiding is perfectly normal for most loaches and clowns may hide for as long as 3-4 weeks before feeling safe enough to spend more time outside. Having more than one hiding place helps, interefering with hiding does not.---it only stresses it further.

Chances of him getting stuck are not great, but if you have any sharp edges, polish them off--he may get cut.

Most loaches (including clowns) need to be kept with friends. Add 2 or 3. Better for the loach, better for you (more fun to watch), and prepare for a bigger tank in while.

(If you are certain that you cannot have a bigger tank later and don't have room for two playmates now, maybe it is better to find another place for him.)

29g: here is where the size of your clown(?) is important. Assuming it is 2"-3", the tank is fine for a while, clowns grow very slowly. I've kept four in 29g for a while before moving them to a larger tank.

HTH.

kelleyfish
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Post by kelleyfish » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:07 pm

Sorry, it is a clown loach and I would guess closer to 2 inches than 3. When you say slow growing, how slow? I would like to have a larger tank at some point, but this is my first one and I have no idea how long it will be before I'm ready to start up a larger one. Also do I need to worry about him getting stuck in one of the caves or does that rarely happen? Thanks so much for the reply, I've only had my clown for a few days and he is already my favorite of the tank.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:44 pm

kelleyfish wrote:he is already my favorite of the tank.
not very surprising.....

if it is your first clown, watch for Ich signs carefully---#1 priority.

per your questions:

Generally, assume that your clown is smart enough not to get stuck.
He may not be smart enough to avoid cuts, so check your rock for sharp edges (and generally driftwood is much better than rocks).

The exact growth rate is hard to predict, but 1"/year is about average, albeit a 2" will probably add more than 1" over the next year.

29g is certainly ok for clowns under 4"---meaning your are perhaps 2 years away from the need for a larger tank.

But of course you still need to check just how crowded your tank is (count other fish).

kelleyfish
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Post by kelleyfish » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:33 am

thanks so much, I feel much better! I will be out buying a couple of buddies for him today!

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:14 pm

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree about a 29g aquarium being big enough for Clown loaches - even small ones.

They are river fish, and as such, require a lot of swimming space and water movement. Really, a tank approaching around 55g has got to be the minimum sized aquarium to keep young Clowns in.

And despite that 'cuteness factor', remember, one day they will need a tank much bigger than that, so be prepared to upgrade again :wink: :

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Emma
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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:13 pm

Emma,

If you are right, it needs to be explained why exactly a 2" clown is less comfortable in a 2ft tank than a 4" clown would be in a 4" tank, and I fail to see any rationale for this being the case.

That upgrade (or upgrades) will be needed is certain (for me too, I have them in a 65g now).

PS. Yours are cute really,...I've been searching for a year for a doublestripe without much luck....

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:11 pm

Hi mikev,

Whilst the majority of your advice was good, I felt I had to voice my opinion on the subject of minimum aquarium sizes for Clowns.

I am very passionate about this, having nutured and observed Clowns for a long time, and working in the trade, I have seen first-hand the effects of Clowns that have been kept in aquariums that are not spacious enough.

In your post, you talked about 2" Clowns in 2ft tanks, and 4" Clowns in 4ft tanks - I did not mention this myself. However, as you have made the point, I have to add that I personally do not think a 4ft long tank is adequate for 4" long Clowns.

Whilst the growth rate of Clown loaches may be slower than in some species of fish, juveniles are more than capable of growing at least 2" a year when kept in ideal conditions. Clowns actually grow most quickly in their juvenile stages, until they get to approx 6 or 7", when their growth starts to slow down somewhat.

At our shop, we will not sell juvenile Clown loaches for aquariums smaller than 4ft long. We also inform potential Clown keepers that they will need a tank 6ft x 2ft x 2ft for them at some point in the future, and any medium-large sized Clowns that get bought in for re-homing will not go to tanks under 6ft. It is unfortunate that most other shops do not have such standards and would rather make a sale than refuse one on ethics.

Despite this, we do get Clown loaches bought in for re-homing where they have been bought from other shops, and where the customer has not been made aware of their requirements and potential adult size. On many occassions we have seen Clowns that have become stunted because of being kept in cramped conditions when juvenile (and therefore at the prime stage for rapid growth). These fish appear deformed with very steeply sloping heads and short bodies, quite different to the normal Clown loach shape. It is a very sad sight to see, and can be so easily avoided by providing them with the space that they deserve.

Clown loaches can swim with phenomenal bursts of speed, a behaviour which is quite natural to them when they feel threatened, and also when they feel excited. Your example of keeping 2" Clowns in a 2ft tank, or 4" Clowns in 4ft tanks does not make allowances for this behaviourial trait. In the wild, it is likely that these powerful fish will swim relatively long distances, at furious speed when need be. In the confines of an aquarium, this swimming area must be taken into account, as they are not sedentary fish. Physical damage to the fish can result if the tank restricts them too much.

As you know, Clowns must be kept in groups (usually 5 or more is preferable), so several Clowns in a 2ft tank will also make a reasonable dent on maximum stocking levels - and that is not taking into account their rapid growth potential.

Clowns are also very easily stressed when moved, so the less number of times they have to be moved the better. It is therefore better to start with, say, a 55g and move once into a larger 100g+ aquarium, than to move from a 29g to a 55g to an 85g to a 150g for example.

These are the reasons why I feel a 29g tank is unsuitable, even for juvenile Clowns. Although Kelleyfish has already purchased a Clown loach and is now somewhat committed to keeping it and doing the best for it, others who may be considering keeping Clowns may be reading this thread and I feel it important to get the information out there so as not to encourage people to keep them in small aquaria.

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kelleyfish
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Post by kelleyfish » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:22 pm

ok, well now I have two, have I completely screwed up? I didn't want the one to be miserable and I will do my best to accomodate them as best I can and am willing to move them to a larger tank down the road but I'm only three weeks into this and am no where near ready to invest in a larger tank yet.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:27 pm

kelleyfish wrote:ok, well now I have two, have I completely screwed up?
No, IMO. Very slightly, if anything, and not irreversibly, you have time to learn, set up a larger tank *right* and move them there.

Hi, Emma,

I most certainly do not want to argue, especially that I agree with most of your points and was not trying to encourage people to keep them in small aquaria.

Lets look at the reality: a large number of clowns are sold all the time, most end up in unsuitable conditions, most of the lfs' never bother to tell people about their needs, and very few clowns actually will reach the adult age.

The only thing which is indeed wrong with the upgrades is the stress of moving.---I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a 29g is bad for a 2" clown (or even four clowns). Moving stress is real (been there), but it can be minimized too: carefully set up the tank, fishless cycle, move their toys/caves over, move clowns first so they "preown" the new tank,..

On the plus side, the loach (two) that Kelly got already has a huge advantage over most other clowns: the owner asks the questions and will try to accomodate the fish. And in most cases, having a too large a tank is bad for someone who just starts: the tank will quickly end up filled up with other fish. And I'm having real hard time thinking about a 120g or more with only 4-5 small clowns.

Again, I'm not trying to question that what you said is a better way, it is.---but the slower upgrade road will work too and is perhaps more practical for most people. And there are practical reasons that run the other way: for example, if the new loach(loaches) get sick (ich or parasites), treating them in a small tank is more comfortable.
As you know, Clowns must be kept in groups (usually 5 or more is preferable), so several Clowns in a 2ft tank will also make a reasonable dent on maximum stocking levels - and that is not taking into account their rapid growth potential.
This is most certainly true (5 clowns is already half the tank capacity), and perhaps if Kelly mentions just how things stand (what other fish is there), one can see better how soon he'd need the upgrade.

kelleyfish
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Post by kelleyfish » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:47 pm

2 small angels
1 dwarf gourami
2 mollies

good hiding places
hope to have live plants soon
ph 6.5-so far very consistent
good current

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:34 pm

Sounds pretty good, you are not overcrowded now, and probably have extra room enough. Plants are iffy with clowns.

6.5 is fine.

Most important thing for the next week is to watch them carefully, looking for small spots/dots on the fins and the tail. If you see any, ask for help asap.

Forgot to mention last time: if/when you decide to add another one, make sure that the loach is well termo-isolated when you move it home from the store (==temp. of the water does not drop too much).

Good luck.


BTW, the favorite hiding place of mine (when they were around 2") was a hollow fake log for reptiles, they all packed into it at night, together with as many khulis as would fit. Now it the private property of the alpha loach when he feels like being alone.

kelleyfish
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Post by kelleyfish » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:29 am

thanks for the heads up about plants, i'll do more research, it's not something i have my heart set on :)

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cybermeez
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Loaches and Lava Rock

Post by cybermeez » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:46 am

Lava rock is very coarse and sharp, so it's not very good decor for loaches to hide in. Try to get something with a smoother surface and your loaches will be much less likely to hurt themselves. Loaches especially love Malayasian bogwood. It's the dark heavy wood than sinks right away. If you get a new piece or two of that I'd suggest boiling in a pot of water on the stove for 30-60 minutes to get the excess tanins out of it. Then let it sit in cold water for a while to cool it off before putting it in your tank. Tanins aren't bad, but they can change the pH of the water making it more acidic and cause you water to become tea colored. Good luck!

P.S. I kept a trio of Clowns in a 30g for about 2 years before they out grew the tank. I then moved them into a 75g. After adopting a large Clown I ended up moving everyone to a 150, but only because the adopted Clown was so big.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:05 am

kelleyfish wrote:thanks for the heads up about plants, i'll do more research, it's not something i have my heart set on :)
The basic story is that they don't really need plants.

Small clowns would generally be ok with plants, larger ones will tend to destroy them.

--

BTW, the best thing about clowns (and many other loaches) is the clicking sound they make. Seems to start at about 2.5", so a silent filter is another thing to consider (for your listening fun, not for loaches).

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