Gastromyzon punctulatus quick question

[mikev]

(I hope I will not get banned for asking too many questions, but this seems to be the only place where a few outstanding questions may actually get answered)

My LFS is supposed to get in a few hours what they call

Borneo Sucker -- Gastromyzon punctulatus

(yeah, I know that the common name does not match the scientific, I assume the 2nd to be correct).

Am I right that (if this is G. punctulatus) it cannot be kept in a normal tropical tank and needs colder water/current? -- or will it be ok?

If a normal tank is not appropriate, can it survive for a month or two before I set up -- I guess -- a 15g planted/current tank.

TIA

[Jim Powers]

Of course you won't get banned for asking too many questions. That's what this place is for, the exchange of info on loaches.
If your local fish store is getting "Borneo Suckers", that could be any number of fish including one of the gastromyzons. You'll probably have to wait and see to be sure. (by the way what we have been calling Gastromyzon punctalatus is probably going to be reclassified as G. ctenocephalus)
First of all, if you have not checked out this article from this site, do so now. http://www.loaches.com/hillstream_loaches.html
It will give you plenty of good info on these fish. Hopefully the author will be along soon to offer his advice
Secondly, we have found that hillstreams can handle warmer temps than what we had previously thought. That being said, remember that warmer water does not hold oxygen as well as cooler water and oxygen level is VERY important to these fish. I would recommend keeping them in the 70-78F range. They do enjoy current too.
Whether you can keep them in a tropical setup for a month or two would depend on whether you can increase the oxygen level of that tank and what other fish are present in the tank. They do not do well with aggressive fish.
I would suggest that you check out the fish when they come in and if they look healthy, ask the people at the store if they will hold some for you until you get a tank setup. This will allow you to get things ready, and see if these fish are, in fact, healthy and acclimated, before you take them home.

[mikev]

Thanks, Jim,

You're right, I really should/will go back tonite with a camera and printed image of G.p. and make sure before asking, I got too excited...

Let me get more info and ask again.

(Aggressive tankmates is not a problem---my tanks mostly have smaller non-aggressive loaches + peaceful topfeeders to balance the tank. The most aggressive fish here is a 3"+ alpha clown already guilty of one murder. 77F is the temp maintained. Adding an extra airstone is not a problem, but I probably have enough already. But setting a good current or planting bigger tanks is not currently possible.)

[Martin Thoene]

Firstly, welcome to LOL Mike and nobody has a question quota here.

Thanks Jim for linking the article......again

Really Mike the exact species of Gastromyzon isn't important as regards care. What is important and mentioned in detail in the article is the fish's oxygen requirement specialization.

Putting them in a regular tank without strong current and good oxygenation would be equivalent to me taping over your mouth and asking you to run the New York Marathon. You know you wouldn't get enough oxygen right?

These really are specialist fish demanding specialist setups to live long and healthy lives in aquaria. I have some hillstreams that are nearly 6 years old as far as I know and I've had other species breed, as has Jim.

Martin.

[mikev]

Martin, great pleasure talking to you.

Of course, I've read (and enjoyed) your article, long ago and again today, and interpreted it as "stay away from hillstreams until I'm ready for them", and I'm most certainly not.

Getting them was not in my plans at all....

So when the store owner told me today somehting like "I have a special treat for you...an algae eater that beats BN...called Borneo Sucker" I had a really bad feeling about it.

I'll see what is the situation tomorrow (could not make it in time today). If it is Gastromyzons (and probably 50 of them, this store imports volume) to be sold as algae eaters, I'd think they would not have very happy or long life anyway....so what I was really asking if it makes any sense to keep a few in obviously suboptimal conditions (which are still better than the store or an uncycled tank of a novice user) before I can have the right setup...or just close my eyes and let it go.

(
OK, I should probably admit that I may be already guilty of the crime of having wrong loaches: I have a few Shisturas, who -- if I understand this correctly --- are borderline hillstream...did not know when I got them. But they are doing fine, getting fat and even growing a bit.
)

[mikev]

OK, it is Gastromyzon punctulatus most certainly, looks like 40-50 of them and healthy (for now).

I'm highly tempted...probably will restrain myself *this round*, but just in case: what is the minimal suitable environment for these guys? 15g-20g? 2 powerheads? Hopefully, does not need to be planted, sand and large stones?

What is the suitable topfeeder for such a tank? (I guess it would be some rasbora species that can tolerate slightly colder temperature).

My good deed for the day was to go through the lfs available loaches list and cross out the obvious hillstream entries.

[Jim Powers]

I would still wait until you have a tank set up for the gastros. If the store has so many fish, you should still have some to choose from when you are ready. Maybe, as i said before, they will save some for you. This would also give them time to acclimate, or die off if they are not healthy.
It would also give you time to put some flat stones in another tank and grow some algae for them to munch on until they learn to eat bloodworms, brine shrimp and pellets. That in itself can take weeks or even months.
I have a nice 20L river tank using one 275gph powerhead and it works great. You could use sand or gravel, (I prefer gravel) and lots of smooth rocks for them to rest and graze. Plants are not necessary but java fern and even val (looks good waving in the flow) works well.
You mentioned schisturas. They like conditions in between botinae and hillstreams and can be kept in either type of setups.
As for top feeders, I would recommend some of the smaller, stream-lined danios and rasboras (choprae danios are a good choice), and white clouds.
I know its hard to resist those cute little hillstreams, but I think you will be happy you waited to get things right. Good luck!

[mikev]

Jim,

Thanks a lot for the very on-target answers.

Could you confirm that "20L" is not a typo? (e.g.20G) I *may* have a shortcut if 10G is big enough (need to think this through yet).

On Schistura: one of mine below

This is almost certainly not a Poculi (despite what my species profile says on TFF), but something very closely related to it. They seem to do well in my common loach tank, growing a bit and fattening a lot, comparing to the few that still in the store (since Sept---nobody seems to like them.)

If I go ahead with this -- still thinking and fighting my wife's resistance -- it is actually safer not to leave them at the store. While they will keep them for me, they also may kill them all, or mess them up irreversibly (both happened).

Thanks especially for confirming white clouds, they are on my "to-have-one-day" list, but probably would need a larger tank.

[Jim Powers]

I'm glad I was helpful.
The schistura could be poculi or mahnerti. Both have fine stripes in front of the dorsal fin. Poculi's tend to be divided. It also tends to be the less aggressive of the two.
A 20L (long) is 30" long X12 wide X 12" high.
A 20 H (high) is 24"x12x16.
A 20 L makes a better true river tank.
A 10gallon would work if you could provide the right conditions. You, of course, would not be able to have as many fish. I actually had my first hillstreams in a ten gallon for a few months before I set up my first 29 gallon river tank. You could put a smaller power head that puts out maybe 125 gph or something like that. Hang a small filter on the back. provide the flat rocks and you could be in business. I'm betting that if things go well, you will end up putting them in a bigger tank eventually. They are addicting. Remember, if you start up a new tank, you will need to add the proper bacteria to prevent new tank syndrome. That will kill hillstreams very quickly. You can buy BioSpira at many stores to innoculate the tank. It works very well. You can use some gravel and rocks from another tank to help too.
As for the white clouds,you certainly could have a small school of them in a 10 gallon. They are smaller than zebra danios.

[mikev]

I'm glad I was helpful.

Without a shadow of a doubt; even if I cannot do it right now, I understand the essentials now. Thanks a lot.

20L : sorry for being dumb, I spent too much time on sites where "L" means a "liter".

On bacteria: I did commit this crime too (relied on the CYCLE and hurt some fish), but it was in the remote past. My only way now is a cheating form of the fishless cycling: infect the filter from another tank, add cycle (never tried biospira), and then feed ammonia until tank is totally stable with more bacteria than I'd really need. The reason is that once this is done, I can move all the intended fish at once and avoid the stress of readjustments which would happen if the fish added slowly. The best result so far is 6 days, the worst is 22.

On schistura: these are not aggressive at all. But probably not Poculis because (1) no metal patch seen on any (2) a couple of them are slightly above the 2.1" max size quoted on fihsbase.org. Among those still at the store, there is strange one which has identical body shape, size and colors, but a different pattern: all stripes are broken in the middle, so it looks a bit like two rows from a chessboard (but it did not match any images on loaches.com)

On 10g shortcut idea: I have a stable planted 10g which is used for khuli breeding attempts, so far unsuccessful. Khulis really hate it since it has algae, these guys probably will appreciate the food. In principle, all I need to do is put in a second filter for current (remove the old in a couple of weeks), remove driftwood(?), and throw in a few stones.

Two more questions if you don't mind:

Ph around 6.5 ok?
How many is right? (I usually go with 6 for loaches)

[Jim Powers]

On cycling a tank, with Biospira, you can do it in one day! Its a great product.
Ph on the slightly acid side is okay. Many hillstreams, as well as other loaches, will quit feeding when it gets down to 6 and below.
Driftwood is okay if you want to keep it in the tank. They may find something to eat on it.
As for numbers, it depends on the size. Six would probably work. Just be sure they have enough rocks to rest on. You might also want to take some pieces of slate and lean them against the back and sides of the tank to give them some hiding places.

[mikev]

Jim, thanks a lot, you taught me a lot here.

I will try biospira -- why miss on the new good stuff -- but still only with the fishless cycling. Probably I'm insane and paranoid, but I actually want to see the tank digesting a good dosage of ammonia before any live fish goes in. You simply never know if a particular package even of the very best product has not been damaged somehow.

[mikev]

Jim,

I need to apologize for wasting your time -- It seems that I have to skip on these after all. I was about to start setting up the tank, but it now appears that I got a major crisis on my hands (few things, like the A different clown loach illness -- help? problem, and the situation today appears considerably worse than yesterday.

If I'm incompetent to solve problems with ordinary loaches, I most certainly should not expand into something new. Not while I'm in a state of panic.

(At least I made sure that the lfs knows how to deal with gastros and hopefully they'll install an extra airstone for them -- I don't think the gastros looked very happy yesterday -- and tell the customers about their special needs, so you did some good, even if I cannot take advantage of your excellent advices).

[Jim Powers]

Well, I hope you get the other problems worked out.
At least now, you will be ready to deal with gastros when you have the chance. Lets hope the store heeds your advice.

[mikev]

Well, I hope you get the other problems worked out.

Thank you, I'm rather pessimistic at the moment.

(un?)fortunately I never had to deal with internal parasites before, and vets, lfs', web and forums are proving equally useless. And experimenting on my own is the surest way to make things worse.