PHOTOS

[loachnoob]

Fran can you post a picture of this black spot you're referring too? I have no familiarity with it in tropical tanks, but there is a very common parasite in temperate climates such as the Midwest that presents itself in fish.

[Loachloach]

With much respect it is not a parasite but water quality issue. To me it is obvious but its hard convincing anyone else.

[FranM]

https://postimg.cc/image/4deqy5pzp/


This is NOT my personal pic but an internet one. I am not home to obtain a picture. But this is similar although my larger clown has more spots.

[Loachloach]

Fran, I've seen many of these pictures and threads. I think the issue is the same, only that everyone goes by nitrate levels and not TDS levels and they just never truly identified the issue, or believed it to be something else.

For example TDS change is known to cause osmotic shock. It is not the pH but the TDS change that causes osmotic shock.....You've got tap water of 86 and tank water of over 300. You're causing a TDS shock at the moment.....The entire point of keeping the TDS steady is to actually not cause such shock via water changes and the major other benefit of the water changes is to keep other things at bay, such as pathogenic load, etc...I just don't understand why people think issues are complicated and mysterious when they're not. I may sound a bit pushy and opinionated because I think I know what I am talking about even though I can be wrong as any other human being. But personally, I've kept fish for quite a while based on that logic and I know it works.

[loachnoob]

With much respect it is not a parasite but water quality issue. To me it is obvious but its hard convincing anyone else.

No disrespect taken, you know much more about this than me!

Any chance you're feeding your loaches snails Fran? The blackspot I'm familiar with is heavily reliant on them as part of their life cycle.

[FranM]

No snails, Noob.

Loach is most likely correct.

[FranM]

I’ve been reading an extensive thread from the old days here and Chefkeith had experienced the black spot issue too, but I think if I understood correctly, he’s feeling the change of TDS from large water changes was the cause of spots and stress, not a prolonged TDS. Something to that effect. I’m really getting worked up over this.

[Loachloach]

he’s feeling the change of TDS from large water changes was the cause of spots and stress, not a prolonged TDS. Something to that affect. I’m really getting worked up over this.

The only way you can have stress from large water changes is if the tap and tank are vastly different. Does anyone ask themselves why does tank water change its composition so much? Its because the input is more than the output.... There is another name for this scenario and it is called old tank syndrome. The name is misleading because it happens in not such old tanks as young as a year old where the owner was never up to scratch with their water changes all along.
The tank water gets polluted, TDS rises, one then does a water change, shocks the fish every so often. If you don't remedy the situation,and try not to cause a TDS shock via reducing the water changes, then polluted water will eventually cut the fish's life short anyway...People do not change fish tank water often enough to maintain it healthy long term and the result is unsuccessful long term fish keeping....

I've said my worth. It is up to you what you take of it. I just sat down after 2 hours of changing water on 5 fish tanks.......Drained them down to just enough for the fish to swim unstressed....Right after the water change everyone is happy as bunny...

[Loachloach]

To add to the above.....Most fish folks measure their water quality via a nitrate test. If nitrates are low the consensus is that the water quality is good. However, nitrate is just one of many things accumulating in a tank and as such is not a good way to monitor water quality. One can have a situation where the nitrates are low but the TDS is rising fast. The water is polluted regardless of the low nitrates.

A fast rising TDS that can't be controlled via a large weekly water change simply means there's something else going on. One maybe adding something to the tank such as fertilizers, or uses chemical media. The substrate could be too dirty, the filters could be too dirty. There could be too many fish for the tank to handle, one could be feeding too much food and the water changes are not enough to counteract this. A TDS swing become inevitable but the polluted water will affect fish's health regardless. The point is, one should have a relatively steady TDS in the tank, near tap level readings, which is almost a guarantee that the water isn't polluted and no osmotic shock will occur via water changes as well...Those two basics will keep fish in their healthiest stage until they reach their old age.

[FranM]

Thanks, Loach. I hear you.

I’ve come too far to screw this up now.

I’ve been using the same big foam block for the aquaclear HOB for years. I’m thinking of cutting it in half and using half of the present block and half a new one. I keep Matrix in there too. Maybe the block is just too old. I rinse it every few water changes. Lots of crap comes out. I submerge and squeeze in a bucket (with Prime) and empty it a few times. I hear that even Prime can alter TDS.

[Loachloach]

Anything can alter TDS. I use Prime too though and haven't noticed any noticeable impact of using it and I double dose it because I do a water change with a python filling the tank directly. When I was doing daily large water changes on my new hillstream loach set up, despite the Prime dosing my tank and tap were in line, so not sure it has any build up effect...

It could be your substrate as I initially mentioned. Gravel traps a lot of stuff. You can just do a reset when you have time. Its not a big deal bringing TDS down as long as one is aware of it, so not the end of the world. Some will advise starting with smaller water changes and gradually increase until you can do larger ones. I'd personally start with large enough ones. I think fish can handle a 100 ppm change at once just fine. Generally about 3-4 back to back 70-80-ish % water changes will bring everything back down fairly fast. Despite that you'd be altering the TDS down, fish will benefit because cleaner water will counteract the "stress of the water change". You may not need bringing it down to exactly tap water. Different tanks will "settle" at different TDS levels but you want it close enough within a reasonable margin. And then keep it there somehow, whatever it takes.

I've only had a large TDS increase from about 280 to up to 500-600 and that was when I didn't do water changes at all for 6 months. Needless to say my fish were not happy one bit and some got sick....I had almost no readable nitrates. The tank was heavily planted below and above water...
Generally said if I didn't know any better, my water quality on that tank would have been considered great, no ammonia,no nitrites and nitrates between 0-5ppm...but it obviously wasn't.....

[FranM]

I wasn’t at home at all today. Tomorrow I will do another water change. I will rinse filter media too very well, then measure TDS. Ya think baking soda affects it too?

Thanks, Loach!

[Loachloach]

Yes, the baking soda would affect TDS too. I'd test before and after dosing the "weekly" dose to see how much roughly, then add that that to the tap TDS measure. That'll be the minimum TDS of your tank roughly that you can aim at to get close to at weekly water changes. I don't know if you have a python for water changes but you may want to consider one. It is not good for siphoning but it is really easy changing water with one. I can just switch it on and sit down while I drain my large tank and just watch the fish. I also feed them when I do a water change so they're busy poking around and don't get stressed by the water change. In my tank the detritus gathers right in the middle so I am done with "siphoning" in 2 minutes then just drain. I don't even siphon each time because there's not much to siphon. On sand the detritus is on top so you'll know when its needed and hover over it to collect it. (Included the last part so I can convince you to get sand for your next tank )

Not to forget, I'd say give special attention to your gravel....

[FranM]

[*]Hey Loach.

Not only have I been using the Python but I siphon gravel at every water change. Sometimes I get around the fake plants but I always disturb the gravel and at least half of the water change is from the gravel. I dig to the bottom of the tank. I have always made that my practice.

When I get the FX6 set up the water will drain from the filter and I, too, will sit and watch. I plan to use sand too and will skim the top like you are doing as well.

HOME NOW: Just took readings before doing a water change. Here they are:

PH—off the charts of my mid range. 8+

KH—4

GH—barely perceptible

Nitrate—10-20

TDS—309

TDS Tap—90

TDS with a bit of prime in bucket—124

Issues with GH? No crushed coral. If I put crushed coral won’t that raise PH?

Going to do half W/C. Will rinse filter media. Will not add baking soda until I take another TDS reading.
(Will put new readings in same post to make it easier)

NEW READINGS AFTER W/C etc:

PH: way off the chart. 8++

GH: barely perceptible

KH: 2.5-3. (Not an hour later and KH already down to 2–one tsp of baking soda added. Will check TDS in an hour or so)

Nitrate: 0-5

TDS: (just prime before baking soda) —189

TDS: (after baking soda—211)

[Loachloach]

Great.

Now see what the readings are before the next water change. That will give you an idea what's going on in the tank. If it rises from 211 to over 300 again and you haven't added anything else at all, it is more likely pollution. It would mean that unfortunately you'd have to do one extra water change a week to keep things stable. Eventually, you'd also want to drop the TDS closer to the reading you got from tap+baking soda as a base start. Perhaps do one more water change in a couple of days this week if you find the time? Just drain and fill, don't bother with siphoning, etc..

Issues with GH? No crushed coral. If I put crushed coral won’t that raise PH?

It probably won't raise your pH at all. It can only raise the pH by raising the KH but since the soda has already done that you'll only see a slight GH rise.

I am sure that once you increase your water volume with the new tank you'll find that TDS doesn't swing that fast, due to dilution, as long as you don't go crazy stocking with more big fish.