Loach heaven...thanks for you help

[LUVaLOACH]

Well guys,

My little dojo is now in loach heaven. He was so far gone I did the only thing I knew to do...I put him in the freezer. I could have never done it had he not been more than half dead. He was just lying on the bottom of the tank getting nipped to death, no movement at all. It's sad but now I have to think of keeping the others well.

I want to thank you for welcome and for your support and advise. I am thankful to have found this site. Thanks so much.

So I guess my next question is... do I medicate the tank or just watch the other guys. This one had a small red lesion on his side when I took him out.

Take care all,
Kris

[mikev]

Hi Kris,

Sorry for your loach death.

You are asking a really tough question.

At this time it is not at all clear what caused it and if it is something that may spread to other fish. The description of the problem may be applicable to more than one disease, and it is hard to guess the medication correctly when you don't have any live fish with symptoms.

One good reason to try to keep a very sick fish alive (as Chris suggested) is to see if the medication has any impact; while you may not be able to save it you often can get some valuable information so that if the disease does spread to another fish, you are better armed. You are also much better prepared for the next round, which -- unfortunately -- will happen one day. New fish very often comes with nasty diseases.

You may also get some information by making photo's of the sick fish (or even dead fish) and posting them; perhaps the photos will be recognized by someone who has seen similar symptoms before.

My policy on cases like yours are: immediate large water change; if the fish was in the tank short time and only in one area of the tank, gravel sac that area. This will **somewhat** decrease the chances of the disease spreading.

I'd personally not medicate at this point: you don't know if the disease is bacterial and you have no fish to watch for the effect of your medicine. And if you continue medication with antibiotics and then have to add yet another drug, you will wipe out the biofilter for sure.

What you must do for sure is to watch the other fish very carefully for any signs of problems, check them at least twice daily for at least a week.

Also, even if all is well and your remaining fish goes to your 55, keep your small tank running: use it to quarantine the new fish you are planning on getting.

Incidentally, just how long did you have this fish? Knowing this **may** give some idea about the nature of the disease.

hth

good luck.

[sully]

if you started a regime of antibiotics you have to finish it. You may create interesting treatment resistant strains of bacteria if you don't. Sort of like with people.

I don't know what specific brand you were using--the regime usually runs 5-7 days.

[angelfish83]

In future clove oil is better than freezing- which is quite painful and a crummy experience for the fish. Clove oil just knocks them out dead painlessly at a high doseage... beats a whack to the head by a mile... freezing by two.

[LUVaLOACH]

Hi Kris,

Sorry for your loach death.

You are asking a really tough question.

At this time it is not at all clear what caused it and if it is something that may spread to other fish. The description of the problem may be applicable to more than one disease, and it is hard to guess the medication correctly when you don't have any live fish with symptoms.

One good reason to try to keep a very sick fish alive (as Chris suggested) is to see if the medication has any impact; while you may not be able to save it you often can get some valuable information so that if the disease does spread to another fish, you are better armed. You are also much better prepared for the next round, which -- unfortunately -- will happen one day. New fish very often comes with nasty diseases.

You may also get some information by making photo's of the sick fish (or even dead fish) and posting them; perhaps the photos will be recognized by someone who has seen similar symptoms before.

My policy on cases like yours are: immediate large water change; if the fish was in the tank short time and only in one area of the tank, gravel sac that area. This will **somewhat** decrease the chances of the disease spreading.

I'd personally not medicate at this point: you don't know if the disease is bacterial and you have no fish to watch for the effect of your medicine. And if you continue medication with antibiotics and then have to add yet another drug, you will wipe out the biofilter for sure.

What you must do for sure is to watch the other fish very carefully for any signs of problems, check them at least twice daily for at least a week.

Also, even if all is well and your remaining fish goes to your 55, keep your small tank running: use it to quarantine the new fish you are planning on getting.

Incidentally, just how long did you have this fish? Knowing this **may** give some idea about the nature of the disease.

hth

good luck.

Thanks hth,

I only had the fish overnight so I am guessing it came sick from the store or the stress did him in. I am concerned today as my other one of my other dojo's has a while spot on his side.

I am going to do a water change and going to finish up the EM. It is only a 4 day treatment so I might as well.

I would have kept this fish and tried but he was just too far gone. I have had other recover from various other bacterial infections when they were pretty bad off so I don't give up unless it is really hopeless.

I agree with you totally about the medication. It is so hard to decide what to use, and I have to be honest in saying that the petstores have just confused me to death. I am so thankful for you input.

TY,
Kris

[LUVaLOACH]

if you started a regime of antibiotics you have to finish it. You may create interesting treatment resistant strains of bacteria if you don't. Sort of like with people.

I don't know what specific brand you were using--the regime usually runs 5-7 days.

Thanks Sullly,

I am going to continue the EM, it is a four day treatment and today the instructions as well as the input of others call for a water change. I am concerned about my other new dojo today as he as a white spot on his side. I will just watch him. Thanks you for all your help.

Kris

[LUVaLOACH]

In future clove oil is better than freezing- which is quite painful and a crummy experience for the fish. Clove oil just knocks them out dead painlessly at a high doseage... beats a whack to the head by a mile... freezing by two.

I have read about the clove oil and intend to get some today. I hated to freeze him but if you could have seen this fish! He was bad off. I did try.


I will not be getting any new fish until I have a QT tank as now my other new loach has a white spot on his side. I am going to watch him and finish the EM tabs...it's a four day treatment...odd but oh well.

From what you have said the maracyn's are the way to go if any other problems arrise. Gonna pick some of that up today too.

I also lowered my temp to 74 for the loaches until the 55 tanks is ready and will keep the mollies with the angels. The frogs, well, they will have to stay there too for a while. My other tank is a 20 gal with 3 african leaf fish, or so they call them, they are cool fish, but I am unsure if anything at all will go with them. Are you familiar wtih this species? I am sure this is not the real name for fish as I have rarely found anyone who has heard of them.

Thank again for all you help, oh, and how do you get your pic on you profile btw?

Kris

[shari2]

Sorry to hear about the lost dojo, and the new issue.

Thank again for all you help, oh, and how do you get your pic on you profile btw?

first, you get an image no larger than 80x80 pixels, 15kb.
then, in your profile (see link at top of page), at the bottom, in the 'avatar control panel', you input the address from either your computer (where it is on your hard drive) or from an actual web page via the url.

then hit 'submit'.
hth (hope this helps)
shari

[chris1932]

I am sorry for your loss and I know It is hard to have to decide what lives and what dies. This morning I found one of my Weathered loaches on the floor. I quick like got a small bucket rinsed him off and plunked him in the Q tank. I am astouded that the fish is alive. I am also scratching my head as to how it got out, tops were all down hoods are trimmed close???

I would agree that finishing the treatment is the proper course of action.

Leaf fish if I am not mistaken are nocturnal predators?

[Martin Thoene]

Kris, African Leaf fish are indeed highly predatory with huge mouths. Their leaf-like appearance is how they hunt. They will creep up ever closer to a small fish with almost imperceptible movements of their fins. So they look like a dead leaf moving with the current. The tag on their chins even resembles the stalk. When they get close enough the huge mouth opens. Each side is connected and it basically forms a big tube. The fast opening action creates an internal vacuum and the prey fish just gets sucked in.
I used to work in the trade and I've watched them hunt feeder guppies like that. It's quite impressive. Never actually kept them myself. How are you feeding yours?

If you have read the profile on the weather loach you'll have seen that I mentioned that they are bred as food-fish and often it seems they don't get treated with the degree of care in handling that regular ornamental fish get. It is not uncommon at all to see fish with lesions and marks with secondary infections. You have to be really picky when choosing them from a dealer's tank. Sometimes there may be underlying damage that becomes visible later and causes a problem or death. Also watch for spinal deformities. You'll quite often see ones with bent spines and this is a permanent deformity. I saw one the other day that was quite litterally zig-zag shaped from above.

Martin.

[LUVaLOACH]

Sorry to hear about the lost dojo, and the new issue.

Thank again for all you help, oh, and how do you get your pic on you profile btw?

first, you get an image no larger than 80x80 pixels, 15kb.
then, in your profile (see link at top of page), at the bottom, in the 'avatar control panel', you input the address from either your computer (where it is on your hard drive) or from an actual web page via the url.

then hit 'submit'.
hth (hope this helps)
shari

Thanks so much, I got it, hehe!

Kris

[Martin Thoene]

Thanks so much, I got it, hehe!

Yeah...we noticed! You look like you could be Emma Turner's sister!

Martin.

[LUVaLOACH]

I am sorry for your loss and I know It is hard to have to decide what lives and what dies. This morning I found one of my Weathered loaches on the floor. I quick like got a small bucket rinsed him off and plunked him in the Q tank. I am astouded that the fish is alive. I am also scratching my head as to how it got out, tops were all down hoods are trimmed close???

I would agree that finishing the treatment is the proper course of action.

Leaf fish if I am not mistaken are nocturnal predators?

I had heard that the dojo's could survive out of the water for some time, you are very luch and congrats for findings him. He would never have made it here with the kitties.

I am sad about my dojo loss, however, I know I did the right thing as he was literally gone when I fished him out. I only hope the others don't get sick as well.

I am not sure if my leaf fish are considered nocturnal or not, I do leave the light on during the day and feed them blood worms every other day after the light is on. They are such amazing fish to me. They literally stalk their prey/food. I would feed them live guppies, however, my six year old would have a fit and they seem to love the blood worms.

Congrats on no loosing your loach, that is amazing.

Kris

[LUVaLOACH]

Kris, African Leaf fish are indeed highly predatory with huge mouths. Their leaf-like appearance is how they hunt. They will creep up ever closer to a small fish with almost imperceptible movements of their fins. So they look like a dead leaf moving with the current. The tag on their chins even resembles the stalk. When they get close enough the huge mouth opens. Each side is connected and it basically forms a big tube. The fast opening action creates an internal vacuum and the prey fish just gets sucked in.
I used to work in the trade and I've watched them hunt feeder guppies like that. It's quite impressive. Never actually kept them myself. How are you feeding yours?

If you have read the profile on the weather loach you'll have seen that I mentioned that they are bred as food-fish and often it seems they don't get treated with the degree of care in handling that regular ornamental fish get. It is not uncommon at all to see fish with lesions and marks with secondary infections. You have to be really picky when choosing them from a dealer's tank. Sometimes there may be underlying damage that becomes visible later and causes a problem or death. Also watch for spinal deformities. You'll quite often see ones with bent spines and this is a permanent deformity. I saw one the other day that was quite litterally zig-zag shaped from above.

Martin.

Martin, lol, I don't know who Emma Turner is but I hope it's not a bad thing.

I did read that about the loach and actuallly saw some that had been dyed! Makes me furious as they are quickly becoming my favorite fish. I checked both of these guys out well b/f I got them so the lesions are something new. I guess I am just going to have to treat the entire tank with the marycyn and marycyn II for safety sake, I may wait a day or two and see what happens with them, but I am going to have it on hand in case.

It is funny that you mention that about the their spines. The surviving new guy seems to be a little (VERY slightly "bent") but does not seem to be causing him any trouble, he is playing with the other loach as I type. It is sad that they are treated so poorly, as for my leaf fish, they are amazing, I just love them...the are characters. The hide in floating moss and litlerally stalk their food. As I don't have the heart to feed them guppies I feed them blood worms and they love them. They are really cool fish but not very interactive like the loach. Still amazing and beautiful.

Kris

[Martin Thoene]

Being compared to Emma Turner is no bad thing as I'm sure anyone who knows her will agree. Here's a visual introduction to the Queen of Loaches/professional fish buyer/ author and good friend...... and other faces from here.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2314

You're new to fishkeeping and fish shops. It doesn't get any better than this as anyone who's been there will tell you......but it's a long way from TN

Martin.