Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

The forum for the very best information on loaches of all types. Come learn from our membership's vast experience!

Moderator: LoachForumModerators

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:32 pm

I have to add Prime upfront and then I pour in the baking soda as I add water so as not to change the parameters too much.

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:40 pm

Let's assume you do a 50% water change with 90ppm TDS water from tap on a tank with 290ppm reading. That would result in a 190ppm before prime and soda. So what reading do you get after a 50% water change for example adding both prime and soda?

For example, if you do a 40% water change, that means mathematically your total concentration is (40% x 90 + 60% x 290) = 210 ppm concentration before prime and soda
Last edited by Loachloach on Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:44 pm

Next w/c I will check TDS before and after. I will still be adding half Prime upfront then half at the end, while adding baking soda throughout the water replacement. I will check reading. Then I will check after Stability.

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:48 am

Just to note, you should always add all Prime upfront.
I am also not a fan of adding products like Stability.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:00 pm

So I used to add prime to the bucket of water I was filling from the sink to ensure that prime was hitting every bit of water going in simultaneously. Water changes were taking forever, rather the refill was taking forever and I wanted to just to keep the steady flow of water going into the bucket which I need to pump out, because I don’t have a faucet that I can attach the python to. I called Seachem and she suggested Half of the full dose, meaning half of the 120 gallon total at the beginning and half at the end, towards the end. I apologize for this reply, I am speaking it rather than typing because I have an aching thumb.

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:01 pm

Well, they are supposed to know better but if you've filled up your tank and there's only half a dose, depending on your water, you can potentially expose your fish to the chlorine/chloramine and possibly ammonia/nitrite depending on your water source.

I personally dose the full tank dose just before I start filling the tank. I'd try that method to eliminate any stress from possible toxins during a water change. Just pour the Prime inside the tank and fill using your best method.

What is your water change routine these days? And can you get the TDS down a bit with a few extra water changes? I think it's a bit too high for your water source. I have about the same TDS and my tap water is hard. As per some of my prior posts in the previous thread, the tap and tank water TDS should be close enough or it means you have a build up. A difference of 200ppm (from 90ppm to 290ppm) is a lot and I'd try to gradually decrease that down, even if you can manage down to let's say 180ppm. You could be actually stressing the fish during water changes. That doesn't mean you should reduce them, but increase them. This is all I can say. I know its easier said than done...

NancyD
Posts: 1510
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by NancyD » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:44 pm

I agree with LL, that difference between you tap & tank TDS is concerning (still). I've never used Stability & I forget why you are, although I know we've discussed it.

I hope you can get to the point that weekly (or 2x) WCs 40-50% are "enough" to keep your tank stable. This constant adjustment doesn't seem good long term for you, or your fish.

Like LL, I add Prime at the beginning of tank refills based on total tank volume.
Image

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:31 am

I have been very diligent with the water changes, especially while the Silver-dollar was going through with issue with the lump on its side becoming exposed. I was changing 25-30 % every two days.

I make sure that water does not go above 20 ppm of nitrate. When it reaches that 20 point, I change approximately 1/3 of the tank.

I use stability because I had over loaded every tray of the filter with matrix. And other users, and the company, state that using stability helps to seed the newest media faster. They also suggest re-dosing after water changes.

The last time I took the filter media apart was the first week of December. My goal was to have it cleaned every three months. I am at my three month limit now. I’m hoping to have this done tomorrow because I have had something to do after work every day this week including today.

I will still take a TDS reading prior to draining the filter and doing the water change. I still feel that the bio load is still low for the size filter I have as far as waste goes.

And, finally, I will go a three or four day stage of having under five ppm nitrate. Then it will automatically jump to 20 on like the fifth day or the fourth day. When that happened, I always felt that oh, finally, the matrix has become so seeded that it is actually working on collecting the nitrate. I have watched a video that over compensating the amount of biological media should truly have a full circle nitrogen cycle happening. But the amount of biological media was staggering. That is why I put matrix in every tray of the filter. Yes, it is a nice thought to think I could go a full week and have under five nitrate. That does not mean that doing water changes would be ignored; they could be stretched out. But, even better, they could be smaller and less stressful without parameters changing drastically due to larger volume water changes.

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:48 pm

FranM wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:31 am

I will still take a TDS reading prior to draining the filter and doing the water change. I still feel that the bio load is still low for the size filter I have as far as waste goes.

That does not mean that doing water changes would be ignored; they could be stretched out. But, even better, they could be smaller and less stressful without parameters changing drastically due to larger volume water changes.
Hey Fran, I am only quoting the parts I am going to refer to. I hope you don't mind.

The TDS has absolutely nothing to do with the size of filter. Filters cannot reduce TDS. Only water changes can. Given the fact that yours is rising, the water changes are not sufficient. The TDS measurement takes into account nitrates plus any other mineral build up.

In terms of water changes, if you let's say have 20ppm nitrates and you want to take them down to 0, assuming your tap water has 0 nitrates, then if you're doing 30% water change at a time, it will take you 9 water changes back to back to reduce the nitrates down to zero. So see, even when someone thinks they're doing their best, it is actually not enough. If for example you do 80% water changes, it will take just 2 water changes to remove all nitrates. So bigger water changes are better at maintaining water quality than several small ones.

If you want to remove 100 ppm of TDS buildup(which I suggested), it will take 3 x 80% water changes in a row. If these water changes are not back to back and are spread apart by a week, one needs to take into account the additional buildup from the new fish waste. So it is not an easy task get a tank back to tap water quality level.....As the years pass, this adds on and eventually the fish just die prematurely if one does not ever "reset" their tank or doesn't tend to do large water changes...the TDS keeps building up.....

In relation to Matrix, there is an old saying in fish keeping: "You can't take something out by adding something back". Only water changes work on reducing build up. Chemical conversions are pointless. Measuring nitrates after one has used Matrix is pointless. Nitrates is a meter of pollution and on its own is relatively non-toxic in the thousands of ppm. However, nitrate is the smoking gun of the real toxin: ammonia. The higher the resultant nitrate, the higher ammonia has gone through the system and trust me, that at any given time the tank has ammonia being produced and ammonia being converted. That's the real problem, as this process is taxing on fish. Nitrate sort of gives an idea how heavy the nitrification process is. So by using Matrix, you're not removing anything. You're making yourself into believing the tank water quality is fine because of lower nitrates. But it isn't if the TDS is rising. TDS gives you the entire picture of what's happening in the tank, and the rise means the tank maintenance is not up to scratch. I understand that this is not intentional on your part, on the contrary, but I think that if you focus your efforts at TDS, you will achieve better fish health.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:06 pm

Just a quick reply right now. The reason I’m going to take the filter apart is because I believe that if the filter media is dirty, that is going to keep up the TDS reading, correct?

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:44 am

Yes Fran, organic matter would contribute as it decomposes and various components are released in the water column. The TDS reading, however, is a measure of conductivity-the various ions in the water column, one of them being nitrate. That's what these TDS meters measure. Actual total dissolved solids can only be measured if one lets their tank evaporate :)

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:06 am

I am NOT going to break the filter apart yet but do my typical 33% (approx 40 gallon) w/c.

TDS before.

No addition of baking soda during w/c.

No addition of Stability.

TDS after.

TDS after the addition of Stability and baking soda.

I will update by Friday night.

Thanks, Loach!

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:58 pm

FranM wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:06 am
I am NOT going to break the filter apart yet but do my typical 33% (approx 40 gallon) w/c.

TDS before.

No addition of baking soda during w/c.

No addition of Stability.

TDS after.

TDS after the addition of Stability and baking soda.

I will update by Friday night.

Thanks, Loach!
Before: 289
After: 223
After Stability and baking soda: 261

Loachloach
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by Loachloach » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Hi Fran.

Thanks for posting these.
I just wanted to ask, why do you keep adding Stability?

My suggestion is, as in the previous thread, to do some major water changing to reset the tank back to tap water as close as possible.

In terms of the Soda Bicarbonate, you do not need to add at every water change unless your KH gets reduced significantly. It does reduce because of nitrification but for example my tap water one has been 5 for quite a few years now and I never have to add any via soda bicarbonate between water changes. But I am a large water change type, 50%, often more than 50% up to 80%, especially on smaller tanks. To be honest I drain as much as my patience and time allows as far as I am within the TDS range as a final result, which means sometimes less, min 50%, sometimes way more. The KH would reduce a lot in tanks with no water changes(experimental ones) or fry tanks in which I feed a lot but these are not the rule to healthy tank fish keeping.

FranM
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:43 pm
Location: Rhode Island USA

Re: Videos. Cyst bursting. Silver Dollar (lives with loaches)

Post by FranM » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:12 pm

I am adding stability because of all the new matrix that I had added into the filter in December. I am trying to seed it as quickly as possible, and according to Seachem and other fish keepers, that adding Stability breaks down the seeding time greatly.

I am trying to keep the parameters as stable as possible, that is why each time I take out water I add the same amount of baking soda back in because my tap comes out 0 KH and zero GH. My water supply has no buffering capability. I read articles that say if the TDS changes drastically it could shock your fish. So if I change 75% of this tank water I could potentially kill them because the TDS is going to change drastically. Who do you believe, what is the accurate result?

I believe it was you your self that said fish need minerals and things that only KH can fulfill. That is why I make sure that the KH doesn’t drop or go higher than four. It may go a little to three it may go up a little to five but it will hover around the same area if I add baking soda in at each want to change. Believe me, I would prefer to add nothing except prime.

I have a sand substrate. It is not especially thick. There is no debris on it, very little. Not like having gravel that debris can settle into. I do not, nor will I ever, understand why I am having nitrates and TDS issues. I think 2 to 3 substantial water changes each week at 1/3 each water change, should be keeping a lower nitrate and lower TDS.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 41 guests