Genetically poor weather loaches?

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MultipleTankSyndrome
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Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:39 am

I see a surprisingly large number of cases of weather loaches running into apparent health problems, despite their alleged hardiness. Such as red spots increasing in size, bloated areas, etc. Has anyone noticed the same?
I'm wondering if this is because the weather loaches available for the pet trade are relatively poor genetically and disease-prone from being overbred at the commercial farms? Neon tetras are a good example of what this is like.

Either way, given all those cases of disease, I'm reconsidering getting weather loaches for my 2nd 473 liter loach tank - they will be replaced by more of the other loach species.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

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redshark1
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by redshark1 » Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:51 am

As far as I know these are not tropical, though there are a lot of species.
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

NancyD
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by NancyD » Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:46 pm

Yes, they prefer cooler temps than tropical, although there are people who keep them higher. They're bred for both pet & in places, food trades (eww). Both the mass production & incorrect temp can add to health problems. In the US they are usually misgurnus anguillicaudatus & are illegal in at least several states. I've always wanted to keep them, they sound so fun. But I lived in a state where they were illegal & now I don't know if I could keep them cool enough in summers...Someday maybe...I take it that you don't live in the US...

If you do decide to keep them try to keep them cooler than most botias & be very picky about health when buying.
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redshark1
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by redshark1 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:57 am

We know that diseases or at least disease strains often originate in aquaculture where the selection pressures are vastly different. For example, it is advantageous for a disease to kill its fish host in aquaculture but not in the wild situation.
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

MultipleTankSyndrome
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:04 am

Thanks Nancy and redshark for commenting. The part on disease in aquaculture being different is interesting, I need to look into it.

With regards to temperature, I mostly agree. The only weather loaches I would feel safe keeping at a tropical temperature are those either produced in the fish farms of the tropical US state Florida, or wild-caught ones from the tropical parts of their range (Burma, Vietnam): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48337

Mass production definitely can add to health problems. Something I suspect to be the case, after recent discussion of similar topics on MonsterFishKeepers, is that weather loaches raised for the pet trade descend from aquaculture culls (meaning they weren't all that healthy to begin with). And in the case of variants like golden weather loaches, they would have been linebred (inbred) in order to maintain that color, ramping up health problems even more.
Regardless of whether the temperature is wrong or right (although a wrong temperature could certainly open up problems), a fish like that is prone to all kinds of health issues anyway.

I do not live in the US, yes. As far as I know they are not illegal anywhere where I live, but many US states and countries have outlawed them for sure.

Ultimately, as much as I like weather loaches, it's very preferable to realize the potential for disease now and not get them than to have to deal with it down the line.
(One upside to this at least, is that without the weather loaches, AqAdvisor allows me to up the striped kuhli loaches to 24! With that many, there will certainly be at least a few visible at all times :lol:)
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

Bas Pels
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by Bas Pels » Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:05 am

with regard towards legally keeping Misgurnis species, as far as I know, in the UK they are all illegal. The European one certainly is.

On the European continent, the European wheather loach is often protected, such as in the Netherlands, making it illegal to keep them. NBut no restriction, what so ever, exists for other species.

In the UK the European one is not found, buyt it would certainly establish itself ther,e possibly with large negative concequences for the wildlife there.

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redshark1
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by redshark1 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 am

I believe that the Asian Weatherfish Misgurnus anguillicaudatus can legally be kept in aquariums in the UK but a permit is required to keep them in ponds. They were found to be reproducing in a pond in Southern England and the population was subsequently eradicated by drainage and liming. This is thought to be an isolated case, but it was put on the restricted list after this occurrence.

The European Weatherfish Misgurnus fossilis has been found 3 times in the wild in the UK but is not known to have reproduced. It is unlikely to establish now that it is no longer imported.
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

NancyD
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by NancyD » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:34 pm

MTS, I think you've made a wise decision to NOT keep weather loaches (of any species) in a mixed tropical botia tank. It's a hard call, we all here want as many loach species as we can, but as well as healthy fish as we can too. I keep hoping my next tank will be the right 1...but not yet...More tanks are the answer or more time...there's always a next loach species to keep, lol
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MultipleTankSyndrome
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Re: Genetically poor weather loaches?

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:06 am

Thanks Nancy. The ironic thing here is that the weather loaches available at my local aquarium store come from Florida fish farms, meaning they're almost certainly capable of doing well in warmer temperatures since the part of Florida where those farms are is a tropical climate.
But then the overbreeding of already unhealthy farmed weather loaches had to get in the way of this otherwise golden (pun-intended) opportunity to have them do well in a tropical tank. :roll:

My cousin drew the line at 3 tanks. Those 3 are big and number enough for everything in my signature at least, but it is the max.
Thankfully, there aren't any species (including loaches and non-loaches) outside those in my signature that I want but the tanks don't allow for....phew! I know a lot of people on MonsterFishKeepers with more tanks than I but more species they want that can't go in those tanks for whatever reason.

To be more positive, there are more upsides to leaving out the weather loaches than previously mentioned. That's 3 less fish I need to worry about jumping out of the tank, plus 3 less fish that could spook the pink tail chalceus with their unpredictable bursts of speed and cause it to either jump out or crash into a tank wall and kill itself.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

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