Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

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MultipleTankSyndrome
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Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:19 am

Want to run the planned stocking numbers for my second loach tank (mentioned in my signature) by Loaches Online to get some advice. The tank is a 473 liter with a 1.83m x 47 cm footprint and 55 cm height (for the US members, 125 gallon with a 6' x 18.5" footprint and 21" height).
My goal is to stock as densely as possible without overstocking to give all the schooling fish the maximum amount of company possible while still giving them enough space.

Number of loaches:
-6x yoyo loach
-6x zebra loach (Botia striata)
-6x Burmese loach (Botia kubotai)
-24-27x striped kuhli loach

I'm fairly confident this is a good amount of Botia, since Martin Thoene had 18 Botia also in the 10-15 cm range in his tank this size and didn't find it overcrowded. My experience with kuhli loaches and Botia together also suggests to me that kuhli loaches are so small and slender compared to Botia of that size that I can have that many of them without taking up too much space.
But would still like to know thoughts on those amounts.

Number of dithers:
-9x roseline shark
-9x Odessa barb
-1x pink tail chalceus

Thanks in advance for advice!
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

NancyD
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Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:20 pm

I think I'd skip the yoyos & go with more kubotai & striatas. I know nothing about the pink tail chalceus(?) but they get big don't they? Maybe a pearl gourami instead, or trio, M & 2 females?

I might go with a couple less roselines but that maybe ok. My only question is are they all temperature compatible? Seems like Odessas might like cooler than the others...I've never kept them but they are pretty!
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MultipleTankSyndrome
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Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:52 pm

Thanks Nancy. I'd be interested to know what your recommendation to skip the yoyos for more Burmese or zebras is based on?
If it's temperament, I'm aware of the occassional report of overly feisty yoyos, which will be rehomed and replaced with more of the other loaches if I get some. But other than that, I'm really aiming to have all 3 species (all 3 are very high on my favorites list, plus I can have good sized groups of a good variety of Botia with all 3).

Based on what I was told on MonsterFishKeepers, the chalceus is both suitable in size for a 1.83m tank and usually leaves even smaller fish alone, even though it does get big (20-25 cm).
It's also much more compatible with the Botia than any gourami would be, since it appreciates flowing water and surface tension, unlike gouramis. Still, your two cents here is appreciated.

Temperature compatibility is unlikely to be an issue from what I have seen and been told on MonsterFishKeepers, as well as the temperature range of Odessas (up to 26 degrees). I plan on keeping that tank very well oxygenated anyway, so what is often thought as the biggest worry is taken care of.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

Bas Pels
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:08 am

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by Bas Pels » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:31 am

I am with Nancy, it would be better not to have too much Botia species in 1 tank.

Botias have a hiararchy amongst themselves, and while I could not tell which species is dominant, one of them is. And the others have therefore less chances. Further, I know from experience - I kept lemon tetras with red heads in the same tank - a mixed school is not nice to look at.

Obviously, this is an argument for keeping only 1 species of Botia in a tank, combining it with other loaches will not be a problem. There are plenty.

With regard to the chalceus - this is a schooling fish, and therefroe I would never recommend keeping 1. Schooling fishes, kept alone will either whither away or become very agressive. You will not want either.

MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:16 am

The hierarchy and aesthetics are things I hadn't considered Bas, thanks for pointing them out. For both good hierarchy and a more pleasing appearance, I'm now seriously considering only 1 or 2 Botia species instead of 3, as per both your and Nancy's suggestions.
I'm fairly inexperienced when it comes to mixing different species of Botia, so this is especially useful advice.

As for the chalceus, I agree that keeping schooling fish alone isn't at all desirable (unless it's something like temporary quarantine) because of the negative effects on the fish you mentioned. But from what I have seen, chalceus are not schooling fish.
Seriously Fish says that because they don't like their own kind, they do best when kept either alone or in a group of 6+ to disperse aggression. And MonsterFishKeepers also indicates they do well alone, with no aggression nor withering away from singly kept specimens: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... us.744707/

In fact, I have seen a case on there of a group fighting with each other to the point where only 1 remained: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-7505780

So considering those, I don't see an issue with having 1 chalceus.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

NancyD
Posts: 1608
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:20 pm

I had only 6 striatas in a 4ft tank with 10 sids. The zebras were very shy. I wished I could have gotten more but not at that time. They're such pretty loaches, I wonder if they'd have been less shy with more of them. 6 is a minimum IMO, more is much better.

Yoyos, from all I've read, are more boisterous, even semi-aggressive as the larger loach species in many tanks. I'm worried that they will bully or out-eat the more shy striatas.

Have you read up on histrionicas? They have similar coloring to yoyos but are smaller. I only had them as a single loach species tank with roseline barbs but they were day active & people friendly. If you can get them you might consider them instead of yoyos. Possibly with kubotai (similar sized)...& much as I loved mine, instead of shy striatas...

Just some thoughts, you have a large tank & time to think about it.
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MultipleTankSyndrome
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Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:14 am

Indeed Nancy, I had read about your 284 liter with the 6 zebra loaches and 10 chain loaches from the much older threads. Seemed pretty understocked, I wonder if that played a factor in how shy your zebras were?
If I remember correctly you had a mix of rasboras as dithers, but with the numbers you gave, I feel as though there may not have been enough to get a good dither fish effect in that size of tank? Whereas my tank will be more densely stocked (and with dithers that the zebras encounter in the wild too), which I'm hoping will be enough dither fish effect and therefore more active zebras.

I imagine if I were to stick to just zebras and Burmese for the Botia in that tank, I could have 9-10 of each. Which, especially for the zebras, would be better than just 6.
Edit: for revised stocking, I might go with 10 of each and 30 of the striped kuhlis, since replacing the larger yoyos allows for more smaller loaches. Anyone have any thoughts on this amount of loaches?

With regards to yoyos and aggression, I think this is a reasonable assessment on it: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3026&hilit=afraid
Despite my inexperience with yoyos, the cases I have read of them not being aggressive lead me to agree that the aggression is variable as the link states. But you are probably right that the yoyos on the more aggressive side of things would bully or outcompete zebras.

I have read up on golden zebra loaches, yes - while doing so, I've never seen them for sale anywhere in my neck of the woods. Their pattern is also not much to my taste no matter how active they may be - to my eyes, they lack the appeal of yoyo, zebra, and Burmese loach patterning.
And with regards to keeping them instead of zebras with Burmese, I'm hoping I only get Burmese instead of Burmese+gold zebra. You may recall a topic in which I asked about ways to tell them apart: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48322

But I still appreciate an alternative suggestion. Even though golden zebras are not to my taste, I sure wish some of their daytime activity could be transferred to shy zebra loaches :lol:

Overall I'm grateful you gave me some things to think about. As you point out, it's a big tank and I have plenty of time to do the thinking.

On a final note: If I manage to get my planned custom 681 liter (imperial units 180 gallon) with a 2.44m by 61cm (imperial units 8' by 2') footprint to upgrade from my other 473 liter that my clown loaches are currently in, I might try some yoyos in there. It's possible the mix might end up not working, but the XXL space and well established clown loaches will likely go at least some way towards reducing any aggression (or better yet, I'll get placid yoyos).
Will update on how that goes if I do it.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

NancyD
Posts: 1608
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:13 am

I think I like your striped pangios, striatas & kubotais better! Not that I've kept that combo. Clowns & yoyos seem also more compatible in size & temperament...I haven't tried them together either...If you do it we're going to need pics!

Yes, I do tend to understock. If I can't get "enough" of a species (6 as a minimum most times) I go with similar size, temperament & swimming level. This, to me, is better than stretching the limits of any tank...I'm lazy & don't want the high maintenance involved with heavily stocked tanks any more...More plants, fewer fish = less work, LOL. After 40+ years in the hobby goals change...
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Bas Pels
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Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by Bas Pels » Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:33 am

Generally speaking, I think it is better to understock (if that is possible) than overstock - because less fish will imply less stress. Obviously, you will still need to have sufficient large groupes, but that would be the only thing.

Once I read that seeing Botias is a matter of having enough hiding places, that is 2 or 3 for each fish. Obviously, that is much easier accomplished with 10 than with 30.

MultipleTankSyndrome
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Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:40 pm

Pictures will be shared for sure if I can make clowns and yoyos work. That won't be for a few years though, since I still have to save up for the custom tank.

Concerning understocking vs stocking as densely as possible without overstocking for Botia, some of the best-faring Botia I have seen come from tanks stocked precisely like the latter. These being Emma Turner's clown loach tank, the mixed loach display tank at Maidenhead Aquatics Peterborough, Martin Thoene's clown loach tank, and Mad Duff's dwarf chain loach tank (he even attributes their breeding to them feeling confident enough to do so, which a big group certainly helps).
These certainly did not have 2-3 hideouts per fish, suggesting this number of hideouts are not necessarily needed to see Botia*. My experience falls in line with this - the Botia I have owned have always chosen to group together whenever they hid as opposed to wanting their own hiding spots, and have been quite active when there were 2-3 fish per hiding spot instead of 2-3 hiding spots per fish.

And, while it is true that maintenance on a well stocked tank can be more stressful, I do have a Python which relieves a considerable amount of that stress. Not to mention, given how well the aforementioned Botia did in their well stocked tanks, I believe any stress on the keeper is made worthwhile by the well being of the Botia in the well stocked tanks.

Now that's not to say I'm against understocking or that it's a bad thing. I do find overly crowded tanks unappealing, and an understocked tank gives more leeway water quality/tragedy-wise than an overstocked or even well-stocked but not overstocked tank.
But those examples I gave above, as well as simple knowledge of schooling fish doing best with as much company as possible, strongly lean towards well-stocked being the best option for loaches and other schooling fish.

A bit unrelated to the advice, but I think I'll write some Martin Thoene-style articles on the setup and history of this tank when it is done, as well as on the setup and history of my custom 681 liter clown loach tank when it is done.

*2-3 hideouts per fish is probably in reference to aggressive and relatively secretive species, like those in Syncrossus and Yasuhikotakia. I have heard similar advice aimed towards their keeping (exceptionally well decorated and lots of hiding spots), so what Bas heard may have referred to them instead of the more peaceful, active species where 2-3 hiding spots per fish doesn't appear mandatory.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:30 am

One final update. I'll be going with 9 zebra, 9 Burmese, and 36 kuhlis instead of the previous plan. Replacing the yoyos with smaller species does (as I said before) allow for more smaller loaches, but the previous plan seemed (very slightly) pushing it in terms of Botia numbers, so more kuhlis may be the way to go for more smaller loaches.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

NancyD
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:50 pm

Will you have live plants? I forget. My pangios loved to hang out in them all the way to the surface. Scared me more than once, but we all got used to that eventually...They didn't move for water changes if I went slowly.

Easy plants include java fern & anubias attached to wood or rocks, not in the substrate. Some denser plantings almost count as "caves". Also cryptocorynes in the substrate; many kinds & colors, most are easy to grow too. Any plant in the substrate will need some time before introducing bigger digging loaches. Pretty tank & pretty loaches, ahh, perfection!

Clowns were much more plant destructive than other loaches I've had. If I fed them romaine &/or zucchini a few times/week that didn't happen often. Vacation & I might be sorry for my swords & crypts...U-shaped holes in many leaves, lol...but they were worth it!
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Bas Pels
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Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by Bas Pels » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:35 am

Personally I think plants are rather easy, contrarily to what I read on many english forums. That is, easy plants.

Personally, I am rather found of Echionodorus (I've bred them from seed) but Botias like them too - that is, they like to nibble the young leaves - in other words, you better not keep Echionodorus with Botia. But plants like Heterandria polysperma, Vallisneria spiralis, Sagittatia undulatus, are very easy to keep, I would say undemanding. And my loaches leave them in peace. Cryptocoryne is left alone too

I've kept them on sand, originally sparsely rinsed, in tanks with a lot of fishes, without doing anyting for the plants, for years. The droppings from the fishes kept the system working. Lights? 1 TL tube suffices.

Keeping plants helps keep the water good, destresses the fishes and the tank looks better.

MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 124
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Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:53 pm

@Nancy, I do not plan on having live plants. This is because of the following:

-Don't want a Martin Thoene-style disaster of filter-clogging plants. We touched on this before and while you were correct that things can happen, I'd prefer to reduce the risk wherever I can.
I do have a planted tank (my 110 liter), but its filtration is either a sole sponge filter or just the plants (there are enough to keep the NH3, NO2, and NO3 undetectable), so there is no risk of a disaster.

-The planned roseline sharks are not able to tolerate the CO2 dosing the plants need: https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/ros ... ng.146437/

-Not just that, low oxygen at night could become a real threat to the roselines as well, even with additional aeration, due to simply the sheer amount of animals and plants using oxygen but only so much being soluble into the water. Also, I have seen them dying from being transferred in low-oxygen circumstances where other fish (even clown loaches) were fine: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ks.646432/, so it seems to me they need exceptionally high oxygen that plants at night would compromise.

-Even if one night doesn't suffocate the roselines, they could well be done in by long term effects of low oxygen that Martin Thoene outlines in his oxygen article: https://www.loaches.com/articles/oxygen-in-the-aquarium
Ditto everything else.

Having said all of that, I completely agree with you and Bas that in the right circumstances, plants check all the boxes for destressing the fish, cleaning, and aesthetics, and are also much easier than the majority would tell you (that is, after all, why I have a planted tank). This tank just doesn't have the right circumstances for some.

There is, however, one thing I can do to make up for that. A plenty of fake plants to provide cover and a natural environment (such as for the kuhli loaches) is what I have been planning on, and it allows for those benefits of plants without the downsides I mentioned.
473 liter - pictus catfish, smallscale archerfish, planned pumpkinseed sunfish
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras
473 liter - roseline sharks, striped kuhli+black kuhli+Burmese loaches, zebra/weather/neon kuhli loaches (planned)

Bas Pels
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:08 am

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by Bas Pels » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:59 pm

Waterplants don't need CO2 addition. As long as your watersurface is moving, the CO2 content of the water will be close to 5 mg a liter, at night and during the day.

My own experience is, even witout water movement and plants, nothing goes wring during the night. But perhaps my tanks are never too overstocked.

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