Tunze noise level?

[Keith Wolcott]

Would someone that has a Tunze stream pump comment on the noise level?

LES.., do your 6060's make much noise?

Emma, how is the noise level on your 6100 or is it a 6200 (I saw both mentioned when I searched previous posts)?

I am not particularly happy with the two AC 70's (old 802's) that I have since they are a bit noisy. Maybe I can find a better way to mount them since when held in the water they are pretty quiet, but when mounted on the glass with the suction cup bracket, they vibrate and are noisier than I would prefer.

Keith

[Emma Turner]

Sorry for the confusion Keith, we have a 6100 on our clown tank. Whilst it is not the quietest of pumps, it isn't unbearable - more like a slight humming noise. We tend to have quite a lot of general tank noise in our living room anyway because we run all tanks with a slightly dropped water level to maximise oxygenation from filter outputs, so when wlaking into our room for the first time, it may sound like running streams anyway! The Tunze pumps are pretty expensive, but totally worth the extravagance in my opinion, our fish take so much pleasure in the flow it creates. I wouldn't recommend using them on tanks containing small fish, however, as the pull from around the cage is pretty powerful. LES.. has found a clever way to overcome this in his new river tank by using it in a 'reverse river tank manifold' situation with a divider to keep fish safe.

Emma

[Keith Wolcott]

Thanks Emma. Yes, I have been following LES..'s thread and his system looks like it will work very well.

Since my 75 g tank just has water and sand in it I have had a chance to experiment and watch the sand dunes form. What follows are some of the things that I have tried.

With Martin's river manifold and two AC 70's the following sand dunes formed from level sand very slowly over 4 days. The water is still a bit cloudy since my canister filter is on the quarantine tank and the new sand still has a bit of fine dirt in it.



The fine particles of dirt in the water have been very useful since they have allowed me to see the currents. If I stir up the sand a bit, I can see exactly how it is flowing and how fast it is flowing. In the following picture you can make out the power heads on the left (one very low and the other slightly higher) and the return sponges on the right.



The current is mostly left to right across the bottom, and the opposite direction, right to left, but slower, across the top.

If you calculate the water moved by the pumps at 400 g/hr each, for 70 gallons of water, that means that the water moves across the tank at an average speed of 11.4 tank fulls per hour or .76 ft per minute (.23 meters/minute). This is really slow, which is why the fast moving output of the powerheads causes more complicated currents that mostly circle around across the bottom and then return across the top.

As I said earlier, I did not like the noise of my powerheads (they also raised the temperature of the unheated tank to 77 degrees). I had an eheim 1262 pump that I then hooked up to the following inputs and outputs.

Input: 1 inch pvc pipe.



Output: 3/4 inch cpvc pipe.


The single cross piece and the double cross pieces are just so I can hold them down with rocks. The tube on the one side of each of the input and outputs goes out of the tank to the external eheim 1262 which is rated at 900 gal/hr (3400L/hr). I was disappointed in the result. There is a current, but it is not very strong. The outputs that I used are much bigger than the .5 inch diameter output on the powerheads so the flow is more spread out and as we saw in the above calculation, if you spread the flow out over the tank it is almost disappears. I also checked the flow rate of the eheim pump by timing it while filling a bucket (with my spouses help so that I didn't shoot water all over the living room). It pumps only about 540 gal/hr. On the other hand the pump is very quiet.

Now I have the powerheads mounted on one end sideways as shown below.



Sorry for the reflections and glare. When I stir up my sand I see that this creates a good current that is circular (across the back and the other way across the front). It seems about twice as fast across the back as across the front. This is the type of current that I think chefkeith is aiming to have with the new tank for which he built the beautiful centerpiece. I think that this may work really well and is the reason that I have asked about noise levels for the Tunze stream pumps. A Tunze stream pump could get a lot of water moving around the circle. One or two could be mounted in one corner of the tank and that might be all that is needed. As Emma points out, the Tunze pumps are a danger to small fish. Thus several of the smaller ones (which may be safer because of less flow) could be used, or the corner of the tank could be enclosed with some sort of netting, mesh, or foam camouflaged as tree bark, for example, to keep the fish away from the input. This would be a kind of chefkeith/LES.. method.

On the other hand, the currents are quite good with Martin's manifold, so if I could just get a better way to mount the powerheads so that they are quieter I would be happy too.

Sorry to go on so long. I am just trying to figure out how I want to ultimately set things up and any ideas and help will be appreciated.

Keith

P.S. Yesterday I installed a new R.O. filter (75 gpd) with a line to the living room. I also bought the pcv pipe for putting a drain in the living room so that water changes will be much easier.

[LES..]

Hi Keith,
I can't call my 6060s quiet, not that they are loud ether. It is noticeable when they are turned of that there is an increase in sound which i would peg at about the same as the fluval 405 canister i have hooked up to the tank. They are slightly louder than my AquaClear 50 which i have on the other tank which is hardly surprising given the vastly different volumes of water involved. Overall the noise is drowned out by the buzz of my air pumps :-)

With my set-up I suspect that i am putting a fair bit of back pressure on the pumps that I'm sure will be causing them to be a little louder than usual. When I first installed the pumps I noticed some vibration against the glass and used some expanded polystyrene offcuts to cushion the pumps, this did reduce the vibration effect nicely. I also believe that the Tunze Streams need a running in period as they are seem quieter after they have been left running for a few hours, naturally this could be a subjective thing with my brain tuning out the background noise.

That is a nice looking tank you have there, it took me a while to work out what you were doing with your manifold though.

Hope this helps,
LES..

[Keith Wolcott]

Thanks for the information LES.. That gives me a real idea of how loud they are which will help me decide how to do things.

Maybe I did not explain the pictures of the pipes well enough. I was just trying to do exactly as a river manifold except with an external pump (so it is quieter and heats the water less). It works, but the flow is not strong enough. I think that it could work as well as the powerheads, but I needed a bigger pump and smaller output nozzles to get the same effect.

I like the black pipe that you used for your setup. Where did you find black pipe?

[LES..]

Maybe I did not explain the pictures of the pipes well enough. I was just trying to do exactly as a river manifold except with an external pump (so it is quieter and heats the water less). It works, but the flow is not strong enough. I think that it could work as well as the powerheads, but I needed a bigger pump and smaller output nozzles to get the same effect.

I caught on to that :-) it is only after building a river tank that i am starting to appreciate just how Martin's design really works. It is not the constant flow down the tank that is the main focus but reducing turbulence in a small area to prevent the flow out of the power heads being disrupted. I have definitely tried to solve the wrong problem when building my manifold even if i am still happy with the result. I think the streams would work brilliantly in ChefKeith's island, the intake can be spread over a wide area and multiple pumps can be positioned with little obstruction to their outflow.

I like the black pipe that you used for your setup. Where did you find black pipe?

I actually ordered all my pipe work online from http://www.aquaflowuk.com/ who were fantastically quick at delivering to my place of work (having to drag 3m lengths of rigid pipework up to my desk really made the delivery room's day!). I had not been expecting the delivery until the following day and did not bring in the saw I needed to cut the tube so it would fit in my car. Stashing the tube in my cubicle may not have been the best idea as I ended up being ribbed about it by all the lovely co-workers i have. :-)

The above information is, unfortunately, of absolutely no use to you as i would imagine that ordering from the UK would blow any budget. My advice is to check out any pond supplies companies that specialise in filters for Koi. The tubing i have is labelled as "uPVC waste pipe". One of the local garden centres sells this type of pipe in their Koi section but is about 3 times the cost of ordering online.

Have fun with your tank :-)
LES..

[Keith Wolcott]

LES..- Thanks for the pipe information. I will check around for some in this area.

I am also appreciating how well Martin's river manifold works to develop good flow, and as you say, without the input flow disturbing the output flow. And it is all done with easily obtainable, inexpensive parts, which can be installed in any aquarium.

Even though I am anxious to get fish in my tank (I have been watching some pretty nice looking Devario aequipinnatus at the LFS), I am going to experiment a bit more with horizontal circular flow. I think that it may be possible to get a really good flow going without a lot of power. I'll post again after I try out a couple of ideas.

Keith

[chris1932]

When I set up my six foot river tank I was concerned about the same factors, heat, noise, and even flow. All things I had problems with in my 36" tank that had in tank plumbing and powerheads. Now with the below tank Magdrive pump I have little to no heat transfer, no electrical components in water, and flexibility of flow. The mag drive pump is almost completly silent. The mag drive pump moves 30-65gpm.

[Keith Wolcott]

chris1932- Thanks for the information. That is one impressive pump. You must have the Mag-Drive 36 which moves 3600 gph or 60 gpm. I had not heard of these pumps. How did you plumb the inputs and outputs? Some care has to go into it when you are moving that much water.

[LES..]

Yowsers! That Mag-Drive 36 sucks down 380W!
Nice pump though, converting back to metric that I make that 13627lph which beats the combined flow of my two Tunze pumps and canister filter. Very impressive for 1" fittings, I just wish there was a way to marry the very high volume/low pressure design of the Tunze stream with the motors you see in the Mag-Drive pumps. It seems crazy that 2 Tunze streams can kick out 12000lph on just 11W each. How much could you shift with with 380W given the right design? There must be a better way to design an external pump for very high volume applications... Maybe we are faced with Martin's thoughts on adapting the endless pool design to aquarium use.

LES..

[chris1932]

The pump is an industrial AnsiMag brand pump, its really old and I got it after a bout of dumpster diving after a customers facility closed its doors for good. It is the spitting image of a Iwaki mag drive. It does not do well when it comes to pressure because the impeller vanes are deep and highly scalloped. However on the flow side of things it rocks the loach tank big time. My first discharge manifold had a 3/16" slot milled 18" long in a piece of 3/4" sch.40 PVC the backpressure created such a strong concentration of flow that water washed over the far side of the tank and stired up so much of the gravel and sand that when the fog cleared there was a bank of sand in the middle of the tank about a foot deep and clean glass on the discharge side. The second design of discharge manifold consists of a 1" x 3/4" tee with pipe on both sides this forms a short leg about 4" on the back side and 17" on the front side with the 1" facing down. There are two rows of 1/4" holes along the face of the pipe for about 37 every 5/8" apart.at first the flow was still very fierce. I took it back out and deburred the holes inside and out, so if you looked at a cross section they are like an hourglass shape. It made all the difference in the world. Flow calmed down but was still strong. I made a spacer that fits between the impeller case and the wear plate as opposed to shaving the impeller face. This cut the flow back without imposing restriction. I can take the spacer out and mill it as the pump wears instead of buying a new impeller. I have the pump hard mounted to a piece of 1/4" stainless steel plate and the plate has neoprene vibration issolators at all four corners. The pump used to buzz on the cement floor. Now its quiet as a church mouse. I will take some pictures as soon as my camera battery charges. There are some pictures in previous posts of mine but nothing really new.

[LES..]

I think i have just found the pump for my next river tank project (probably due around 2012).

1700 litres per second!
(It will also produce perfect sushi from any fish)

[sanjeev]

Hi,

I'm just trying to understand all of this. I was looking at the Marine Depot website for pumps. And from the posts above the 6100 can displace about 3175g an hour. Wouldn't this cause significant turbulance in the tank ? Is there a formula to calculate what kind of gph is required based upon the size of the tank ?

Thanks
-Sanjeev

[LES..]

Hi Sanjeev,

To answer your question, yes, such high flows do cause significant turbulence if they are not managed correctly.

Many of the very high flow pumping solutions discussed are specifically for hill stream loaches that live in the very fast flowing upper courses of rivers. To cope with the conditions found in these rivers the fish have adapted to allow them to cling onto rocks. Keeping these fish in the aquarium is a challenge as it is very difficult to recreate the specific conditions found in nature, as ever where there is a challenge you will find people who wish to meet that challenge. By building a manifold system it is possible to adapt the flow in a tank so that it predominately flows in one direction, this removes much of the turbulence but in turn raises more problems with heat transfer and pumping efficiencies.

When looking to create these types of tanks the turn over is not bring considered for filtration. Most of the rules of thumb i have seen put turn over for filtration to be between 5-15 times the volume of water to be filtered per hour. This is a general guide, there are many other considerations that need to be taken with regard to the volume of filter material and the length of time the water is in contact with the material.

I hope this answers your question. :-)

LES..

[Keith Wolcott]

That is some pump. That's 6,120,000 liters per hour or 1.6 million gal per hour. Thus, you could have a tank with height and width equal to 1 meter and the water would flow along the length at 1.7 meters per second. That's pretty good. Imagine that pump hooked up to a circular tank with quite a whirlpool in the center or an empty center.