Little help please? **PICS**

[brochtune]

Hi everyone, I was hoping that you all could chime in about my sick Clowns. I have been treating for Ich and am on the 6th day of treatment. I've lost one of my small guys already and also a Black Phantom tetra.

My problem is that it may look like something else as well. It was definately Ich to begin with but now they look sort of....wispy? I don't really know how to describe it but their colours are not as dark and on some of my medium sized ones they look like there's something wispy and white coming off one of their tails. Up until this morning I hadn't seen them at all in about 4 days and I haven't seen them eat.

I woke up at 4:30 because my son came into my room with a belly ache (he's 4) and thought I'd check on them with a flashlight. Two of my medium ones (about 2.5") have lost A LOT of weight and were basically at the top of tank, swimming in the current, seemingly just trying to keep up. Any stronger current, it appeared, would have toppled them over. They have lost a lot of weight and also weren't afraid of me, which is VERY odd...I figure that they don't have much time left. I ran to grab my camera but they went into hiding by the time I went back. I got some pictures of my big guy (about 4").

He doesn't look exactly the same as the others, they are more severe than him, though they look similar.






Can anyone confirm Ich and maybe have another idea of what else it is, if any?

The reason I think it's something else is becuase I' haven't read anywhere that Ich changes behaviour like this. Plus they don't JUST have the white dots anymore, more of a haze (maybe?), which makes me think that it's either a severe infestation or something else as well.

Thanks, as always.

-Thomas

[brochtune]

I went to check on them again and I saw my medium loach out. (I can't call them by their names because I can't identify them when their fins are all clamped down.) It seems like he's gasping for air, which I guess might be a sign of respiratory failure due to ich in the gills?

I feel so bad for them. I went from a healthy tank to this...makes me wonder if I have any business keeping fish...

Sorry the pics are so poor, I didn't have time to setup the tripod.








-Thomas

[saphphx]

it looks like that white slimy desease I was reading about. I think you treat it with white spot meds anyway, but would ask someone more loach minded then me. Good luck though, I hope they are all ok!

[shari2]

Hey Thomas,
One sick little guy there.
What are you treating with? I saw what looked like one possible ich cyst on the first set of pics, unless that's either on the glass or in the water?

How long have you been treating?
What are the water parameters? esp. temp
Do you have extra aeration?

The white stuff sloughing off appears to be the slime coat.

When you shined the flashlight on the fish, did you see what looks like a dusting of spots that appear rusty? If so you are now dealing with Velvet or
Amlyodinium or Oodinium in a rather advanced stage. Read the link. And post back asap.

Hopefully, you can heal them, but you must act quickly at this point.
Most often it was introduced to the tank. What have you added lately?
.........
Edit.....
Here's a link for what seems to be the most successful treatment for it. Aquiflavine
Turn off the lights. Raise the temp to 86F. Keep good oxygenation. Remove carbon. If you aren't already using Methylene Blue (not Malachite blue/green) you can add that in conjunction with the acriflavine. It acts as an oxygen transporter.

[brochtune]

Hi, thank you both so much for responding.

Hey Thomas,
What are you treating with? I saw what looked like one possible ich cyst on the first set of pics, unless that's either on the glass or in the water?

Initially my small loaches had Ich then I started treatment with Quick Cure, under the guidelines in the Sticky about Ich. Every other clown came down with it rather quickly as well. It seems to have largely changed to smaller ich and what you are able to see here. Is it possible that I got Ich then Velvet?? The glass is dirty so I'm not sure if the spot you are seeing is Ich or not.

How long have you been treating?

This is my 6th day of treatment.

What are the water parameters? esp. temp

I'm not sure about Ammonia, Nitrites or Nitrates but I've been doing almost daily water changes at about 25-30%.
Temp is a solid 86F.

Do you have extra aeration?

I do, I lowered teh water so my output splashes around, as well as added an airstone and also an extra AquaClear 20 Powerhead with the airpump going into the venturi connection.

When you shined the flashlight on the fish, did you see what looks like a dusting of spots that appear rusty?

I can't tell that it's rusty. The clowns are pale but they are usually quite orange-reddish, so I'm not sure if I'm seeing coloration from the "dust" or if it's the skin. I'd say the spots look more whitish or very slightly yellowish.

Read the link. And post back asap.

I read the link and I have to say that the description is bang on. the only thing that makes me wonder is that I can't say for sure that the "dust" is yellow/gold.

Most often it was introduced to the tank. What have you added lately?

I added 3 larger Clowns. about 3.5-4" long from a tank that had been established for 2 years without any additions. I thought it would be fine... However, I treated with Melafix and Pimafix for a fungus on my neons and zebra danios and I had raised the water after my last treatment. Oxygen depletion ensued and I lost the two largest clowns(All fish were gasping for air.) I thought that the oxygen depletion caused the stress that enabled the Ich to set in.

Here's a link for what seems to be the most successful treatment for it. Aquiflavine
Turn off the lights. Raise the temp to 86F. Keep good oxygenation. Remove carbon. If you aren't already using Methylene Blue (not Malachite blue/green) you can add that in conjunction with the acriflavine. It acts as an oxygen transporter.

The quick cure has the Malachite green, as Im sure you know, but I was under the assumption from things I had read before that Ich treatment would take care of Velvet as well?

Thanks so much for you response.

-Thomas

[shari2]

No, ich treatment doesn't always do much for Velvet. It is a much more difficult to treat issue, usually, though some sites do say to use the same meds...

I'd try the acriflavine after a large water change. Run some carbon for a few hours (don't know how long would be helpful but you need to act fast if it's velvet at the stage I'm seeing) to try to get rid of the Quick Cure. The color you see may not be as big an issue as the rest of the symptoms seem to match quite closely. I'd say it's highly likely it's velvet, even if you don't see much color to the spots.

I wish Barbara was around. She had some very up close and personal experience with it and knows alot...

[brochtune]

I'd try the acriflavine after a large water change. Run some carbon for a few hours (don't know how long would be helpful but you need to act fast if it's velvet at the stage I'm seeing) to try to get rid of the Quick Cure.

Does the Quick Cure interact poorly with the Acriflavine? I can imagine that it just puts further stress on the fish so I was wondering if I were able to do a 30% WC then treat with only a 1/4 dose of the Acriflavine then dose 1/4 again 12 hours or so later. what do you think? That way I'll at least start to get the Acriflavine in there, albeit a lower dose.

Also, do I need to half the Acriflavine for the loaches?

Thanks so much, you've been a big help, Shari.

-Thomas

[shari2]

Searched the archives for you and found several threads dealing with it. Leadfoot had a serious bout with it and ended up finding that Maracide finally did the trick for him.

http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives ... read=77216

hth

[brochtune]

Thanks so much for you help, Shari.

The process is underway and I'll let you know how it all progresses. They are all looking quite ill and the largest one looks like he's barely hanging on. I found one of my smaller ones dead when I started the water change so who knows how it'll go.

I've lost 4 clowns now in about a week. If this keeps on going, I don't think I'll be able to get any more loaches. It's just too agonizing. I haven't lost my original 3, but the one with the stringy tail is one of them. I'll take those the hardest, for sure. I feel like I'm running an Auschwitz or something.

I'll end up just filling my 65 with guppies or something...

Thanks again.

-Thomas

[shari2]

Leadfoot (who was the main guy in the velvet thread) and Robroy both expressed the same thought. When you are watching your fish suffer and die, and can't seem to help them try though you might, it's easy to blame yourself and just want to quit.

On the other hand, who's to say your clowns wouldn't have passed on long since if they'd gotten into someone else's hands? Not a pleasant thought, but a valid one. It's stressful. It's painful. I'm sorry, I know how you feel, and it isn't good.

[saphphx]

I know how you feel, watching all of my pandas die one by one was horrible. I think we need to start Fish Support Group. Seriously would be very handy.

Its worse when you know you have done all you can and there is nothing else you can do but wait and hope. I'm at that point with my Little Blue, I know how it feels -hugs- you just have to hope for the best You're doing more for your fish then most people who get fish. If someone else had gotten them they would probably not be around at all. They are very lucky to have you, I'm sure you're the only reason they are still holding on, fishy love for the Great Feeder (as my mates say my fish think I am lol)

I'm sure they will get better soon. Squishy, Spot, Little Blue and all their friends say hello and are cheering for them to get better soon -hugs- If you ever want to talk, all us loachy people (and people like me who are trying to be loachy people lol) are here for you!

[brochtune]

Hi, my name is Thomas, and I'm a loachaholic...

Thanks for your support.

Tragically, one of my medium ones has died and another is almost there. The largest one, from the first photo, is about gone too. I supposed I should try to euthanize them, but I don't know if I have the nerve. I'll head over to the fish store and pick up some clove oil (or whatever it is).

Ironically, I'm a better fish keeper now. There's no substitute for experience I suppose, it just seems like it could have been easier or gone a different way. I'm just amazed at how fast it took over my tank.

Good news is that my last medium sized one seems to be doing fine. He's not covered with the fuzz and his breathing isn't as labored. He's skinny but I think he's doing fine enough that he might last through the treatment. He also takes off if I come near, which the others don't do anymore. They're in too much pain, I suppose.

Thanks again,

-Thomas

[saphphx]

Personally I would keep trying to treat them, but if you think they are suffering to much, putting them down may be the best thing for them. I've only ever put one fish down, it almost killed me. I guess in a few cases I should have put some down, but I always try to treat them til they die and always have hope I guess, its a hard choice to take, and I don't think I'm strong enough to make it to be honest.

[loachmom]

I've lost 4 clowns now in about a week. If this keeps on going, I don't think I'll be able to get any more loaches. It's just too agonizing. I haven't lost my original 3, but the one with the stringy tail is one of them. I'll take those the hardest, for sure. I feel like I'm running an Auschwitz or something.

I'll end up just filling my 65 with guppies or something...

When I read this post, brochtune, it brought back vivid memories of what I was feeling less than 6 months ago. I, too, was experiencing sickness in my newly set up tank.
Every morning I would head to the tank, hoping to see some improvement, only to find something new had cropped up. I lost clowns, too, as well as other fish.
I was feeling so helpless and discouraged. I just wanted a tank that I could sit in front of and watch the fish swim and play.
I think my family found me miserable to live with. In fact, my husband gets this awful look on his face whenever I notice something 'unusual' in my tank.

Lately, thankfully, everything has been healthy, but I know that at anytime I could find a "spot" or something. I'm always scanning my tank for signs of disease.

So please know that you are not alone as you face this.

[Hell Fire]

Im sorry to hear of this problem. I had a upsetting ne with my clown loach not too long back. The threds on here somewhere. I lost them ALL. It looked pretty much as your do and the whole slime coat came off, turned out it was a parasite in the gravel after all that. Ive since treated the tank with this stuff called Punktchen. Its great stuff. Its for whitespot, parasites etc etc. If id found it earlier i may of saved them. I did manage to save one of the 4 zebra loaches i had at the time in that tank. It was caused by a electric syphon, sucking up the uneaten food but puts the water back in so the parasites breed etc. It also could of been caused by many things i was told. After all the things i tried it was the best and quickets.
Good luck and so sorry about the loss. Its terribly upsetting i know, ive had so many loaches die over the years but it does happen. My 1st loaches i ever had were fine for ages but had a severe case of whitespot, even meds didnt help it, and i got it early too!