Clown loach lip-locking

[Icewall42]

My big guys, 8" and 10" have been beating on each other for days on end, constantly greying out and lip-locking. They did this only occasionally before, but now it's a habit, and it's making me unhappy. The smaller clown keeps getting his sides scratches up, and both loaches have bruised noses by the end of this, and I ca't get them to stop.

They are in the 30g because of the epidemic in the 72g, so is it just tnak size that's getting to them? They're so big that they prefer to be out in the open, as opposed to hiding.

[LUVaLOACH]

My big guys, 8" and 10" have been beating on each other for days on end, constantly greying out and lip-locking. They did this only occasionally before, but now it's a habit, and it's making me unhappy. The smaller clown keeps getting his sides scratches up, and both loaches have bruised noses by the end of this, and I ca't get them to stop.

They are in the 30g because of the epidemic in the 72g, so is it just tnak size that's getting to them? They're so big that they prefer to be out in the open, as opposed to hiding.

Icewall,

I would say this behavior is due to being crowded. I am sure when you get them back into the other tank they will cease this behavior. Ever been in close quarters with a someone for too long...they will get on your nerves, lol.

You said a 72 gallon? What is going on in that tank and what do you have in there along with the clowns?

Kris

[stabile007]

Hi,
here is the link to the topic to what happened in the 72 gallon tanks.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=6284

Thanks for the replies.

[mikev]

My big guys, 8" and 10" have been beating on each other for days on end, constantly greying out and lip-locking. They did this only occasionally before, but now it's a habit,.

Just as a guess: social readjustment. Always happens with Clowns (and -- to a lesser degree -- with other Botias), it happens if loaches are added or removed and especially if the environment has been changed. It seems to last for 4-8 weeks, longer for larger fish. Clowns certainly react to other botia's being added/removed, albeit less than to adding/removing their own kind. And, if you have 3 only, the group is not very stable to start with.

Do they have individual hiding places? --- if not, make sure to provide them. Better if they readjust by hiding than by fighting.

--

Another, less likely, possibility is of course that they are infected with whatever you had. A disease may cause an increase in agression too.

[Icewall42]

The smallest clown has a hiding place under the log, but the two oafs are so big that I actually don't have anything they can fit under, much less anything that will fit in the tank. It's a really unfortunate situation, but I had no other choice when this new epidemic started killing my other fish

Also, I've had these two big clowns for a while, much longer than when I actually learned about their social behavior. I've been trying desperately to add clowns to their group, but the ones in the LFS are so small, and the ones I do add usually die for I don't know what reason... I've always had a really hard time introducing clowns. A few years back, I actually had two other decent size clowns with these two big guys, but I had to give them away when I moved cross country... they didn't fit in my carry-on So instead of risking overcrowding in the bags, I tried to give them to a good home.

[LUVaLOACH]

Hi,
here is the link to the topic to what happened in the 72 gallon tanks.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=6284

Thanks for the replies.

Icewall,

I am so sorry to hear about this. Did the fish die rather quickly after signs appeared? I am asking b/c I had something like this happen to me a few months ago and it was aweful. I hope you get it figured out and let us know. At least you saved the loaches....better crowded than dead!

Good luck,
Kris

[stabile007]

Well i woke up and I noticed that a lot of fish were dead and so I woke Icewall up and we lost two more fish although the modesta did not show the signs of the disease. it happened rather suddenly.

[mikev]

Well i woke up and I noticed that a lot of fish were dead and so I woke Icewall up and we lost two more fish although the modesta did not show the signs of the disease. it happened rather suddenly.

Very sorry to hear this.

Could you write a log of the fish deaths? (provide the full list of fish, and approximate dates of the deaths, include also a mention if the dead fish was smaller or larger within its species).

Sometimes it is possible to see the pattern and guess the cause, and since it appears that your problem continues, you need to know what is going on.

Good Luck!

[Icewall42]

Sure thing, I can do a log, though I might have forgotten some of the dates... here goes (and thanks for all the help).

Thursday, April 19, 2007: All fish looking healthy and active, except for the Botia Striata, which had some white patches, but otherwise just looked beaten up. Tank was treated with a half-dose of Melafix.

Friday, April 20, 2007: I was awakened at about 7-8am to find 3 fish dead, 1 dying, and 3 fish infected. They were:

Dead: 1 six year old Botia Striata, 2 skunk loaches, a six-year-old and a one-year-old. All exibited a fimly/patchy substance coting their bodies.

Dying: 1 Botia Histrionica, badly infected with a thick film of patchy white/grey slime. He shortly died after I found him.

Infected: 3 Botia Modestas, each with patchy white spots on their bodies, but little film.

I separated out the healthy fish (3 clowns and a Kuhli) and the infected fish (3 modestas). The healthy fish went into a 30g Q-tank, and the modestas went into a bucket with a heater, airstone, and filter. I began breaking down the infected 72g they called home. I also began treatment of Super Velvet Plus and Maracyn in both tanks.

Saturday, April 21, 2007: All remaining fish still alive. The Super Velvet Plus/Maracyn treatment is continued. White spots are gone from the infected modestas, but their gill flaps had rashes. One of the modestas was active, but would sometimes flop over on its side and have balance issues.

Sunday, April 22, 2007: 1 modesta dead (the one that had balance issues). The rashes on the other 2 were almost gone. I decided to put these two modestas in with the healthy fish of the treated 30g. They regained their color and their appetite. Continued Super Velvet/Maracyn treatment.

Monday, April 23, 2007: All remaingin fish (2 modestas, 3 clowns, 1 Kuhli) alive and well. The modestas have lost the redness on their gill flaps and are active and eating. The infection was NOT spread to the other fish. Continued Super Velvet/Maracyn treatment.

I have since had no more problems. The striatas and skunks were pretty much full gorwn or nearly full grown. The Histrionica was also quite large and probably full grown. The dead modesta was not quite full grown, but he was about an inch, inch and a half short of full length. Most of these fish, except for the one skunk, were 5-6 years old. The striata had been beaten up before, but he recovered. The modesta had never had a previous illness, unless you count the seizures and panic it had a couple weeks before this. The younger skunk had no previous illness, but the older skunk had had a wasting internal parasite for some months before recovering fully.

The biggest clown has been through velvet, ich, columnaris, fin rot, the second biggest had fin rot and ich, the littlest has never been sick (he's about a year old), and the Kuhli has never been sick (he's 5-6 years old.)

I'm wondering if a patch of stinking grey matter that I found in the sand under som planted Elodie/Anachris had something to do with this illness. I accidentally stirred some of it up when I was replanting. It smelled wretched, like rotten eggs and rot, and was localized to a 2-3" circular patch inside the sand.

[mikev]

Thanks, Icewall.

(Sorry for misinterpreting the stabile007's post above: it sounded like if you had more casualties today.)

Myxobacteria indeed sounds very consistent with what you report, both in timing and in symptoms. Of course, only a lab can diagnose and be careful with what I'm going to say next, since the diagnosis may be wrong, and more than one strain exists.

Further, my own encounter with it was with hillstreams, that of course are killed off much faster, and symptoms tend not to develop because of this -- the fish dies before becoming symptomatic. I had about 20% symptomatic, and about 80% simply dead; in a larger fish, you will have a higher %-age of symptomatic and secondary infections which your log seems to indicate. Antibiotics will be generally useless against this thing, but general disinfectants do work. Asacr, SuperVelvet Plus is Salt + Acriflavine; Salt is certainly effective, Acriflavine probably is too (it is not the usual drug in this case, but it is in the right group. Meth is certainly effective).
If the diagnosis happens to be correct, two items to be aware of:
1. GOOD: some fish may develop immunity after exposure. It is not common, but based on some other observations, I think Botia's are good candidates for it. Hillstreams really cannot do this.
2. BAD: this thing is in your tank for a while yet. It can encapsulate and strike back later. It happened here, after what seemed to be a fully successful treatment for 10 days. I _think_ the danger zone is about 2mo, so if you are getting new loaches, don't mix them with old tanks or any material from the old tanks for this long. Having a UV running should reduce the chances of recurrence a bit, but does not guarantee anything.

hth & good luck.

I'm wondering if a patch of stinking grey matter that I found in the sand under som planted Elodie/Anachris had something to do with this illness.

Poisoning by a rotten material? -- IMHO, probably not, you report too many other symptoms. You can cover this possibility with more aggressive water changes.