Two Botia Kubotai--new to loaches!

[blazeblast]

Hello all! I have a few questions about the Botia Kubotai regarding parasites and how to properly QT them.

After a disaster a month or so ago with two clown loaches that I did not QT which ended up bring ich over...and I was lucky enough to not lose a single one of my other fish...I came to the conclusion that QT is really the best way to go. Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of a QT tank, it is just a 2.5g bowfront acrylic tank with an UGF and no ornaments, just some smooth gravel. I bought two botia kubotai Saturday from my local Petsmart, because they are the only shop around town that sells them.

To make a long story short, I discovered one of them covered in ich and very pale Sunday afternoon. I began treating with Rid Ich + because I read that it is safe for scaleless fish. Unfortunately, I lost the little guy that visibly had ich Tuesday--and the other, that showed no signs, is still hanging on. I am continuing to treat with the Rid Ich + until Friday, to make sure there is no more ich in the tank.

I took the poor little dead guy back to Petsmart after I discovered him Tuesday, and decided to go with an exchange because the kubotai they had looked pretty fat and healthy. Now both the new Kubotai, and the one I have had since Saturday, both seem to be doing pretty well (although the new guy keeps hiding his head inside the gravel, is this normal?)

I have been offering them freeze-dried bloodworms and I have put several snails inside their tank from my main tank to both help with cleanup, and incase they decide to eat them. I think they are eating the bloodworms but I can't be sure--I just know that when I come back a few hours later, all the bloodworms are gone.

I also noticed that the 5 snails I put in their tank yesterday, were not there this morning. I can't think of any other justification to this, other than they are being eaten. (;

But I am straying away from my point. So far I haven't seen ich on these two fish. They get very pale when they lights go out (is this normal?) and I have been keeping a towel wrapped around the front of the tank, because there is a lot of movement in the room and I don't want them to be stressed. They are not very active, from what I have seen, and I am worried they might have internal parasites. I'm not really sure, other than the two clown loaches I lost, I have never dealt with such sensitive fish, so I am not sure what to do. I would really like to have these guys in my main tank someday, so if any of you could recommend good QT techniques to keep these guys alive, I would greatly appreciate it.

Currently I am changing about 15% of the water daily, just before adding the Rid Ich +. Like I said, if I don't see any visible ich by Friday, I will stop with this med. Is this a good idea?

Should I go ahead and treat for internal parasites, even though I am not sure they have them? I have heard about the levamisole hcl. There is a farm supply store near my house I plan on going to as soon as possible (I work 40 hours during the week, so its hard to make it out when stores are open) to see if they have any. Is dosing with this a good route to take, or should I try some Maracyn I or II, or both?

Sorry for the long post and all the questions, these parasites and diseases are very new to me. (; I have been in the hobby for almost two years, and I guess I have been very lucky with my fish!


And just for reference, my 29g main tank includes:

One 3-4in bala shark (I had no idea how big he would get when I bought him, I'm working on getting a bigger tank for him this winter)
Two peppered cory cats
One panda cory cat
4 otocinclus (who are all plump and a few months old, thankyouverymuch (; )
and 3 sword plants

Thanks in advance!

[Rubix]

To make a long story short

lies! just kidding

anyway, just wondering what your temperature is at and is it stable? ive found the best way to get rid of ich and keep it gone is to keep temperature above 80 F. the higher the temp the quicker the parasites die.

i also got my kubotai at petsmart, i originally got 5, two died within the two week period so i got my money back. unlike yours, mine were all skinny and one of them was very pale. i was skeptical, but somehow they made it *knock on wood* (this was in january).
the one hiding his head is normal - i think, he's just not acclimated yet. the first month or so mine would stay under some rocks and under the stump, often burrowing somewhat up underneath.
freeze dried bloodworms are great, mine love them and thats what i feed them most often, usually every 12 hours, give or take an hour or two. i cut the little squares/cubes in half and only feed a half at a time... i originally only fed them a forth at a time, but theyve plumped up enought that they can get a half down (i also have six other fish that partake in the worm session too). i occaisionally feed them flake and/or algae wafers to mix things up, plus i have other fish in there that love the flake. usually once or twice a week i will skip a feeding. you should sit and watch your fish eat, its a good way to make sure everyone is healthy and behaving normal (plus its entertaining!). watch them eat so you can figure out if your over or under feeding, and again - to make sure theyre eating... uneaten food in your tank is bad and causes disease such as ich. ive read that kubotai arent big into snails, but maybe yours are an exception or maybe the snails are hiding.
the pale coloring at night seems to be normal, my kubotai also do this.
my advice is to not worry, they arent active at first because they are most likely scared. give them a month or two and theyll be swimming around and dancing everytime you are near the aquarium. do not over medicate, it can lower the water quality. just provide them plenty of hiding and food as needed, theyll come out of their shell so to speak.

any other questions, just ask, the people here are great and VERY knowledgable welcome to the forum by the way!

[blazeblast]

Unfortunately, the only heater I could find that wasn't too big for that tank, was one of the ones you can't set the temperature on. It supposedly stays at 78 degrees, but every time I check the thermometer it reads about 80 degrees. I would have liked to raise the temperature otherwise, since I've read this helps kill the ich. But, no dice!

They aren't fat, but they aren't skinny. I have seen FAT loaches, the way they are supposed to look, and they certainly aren't that--but really, they don't look as unhealthy as the skinny loaches I've seen.

I think they are eating the bloodworms, and I'm still not sure about the snails. It seems like there are less, but that may just be wishful thinking. (; But, the snails are also good, if the loaches aren't eating the food that I'm putting in, then surely the snails are so the water quality won't degrade too much. Like I said, I have been changing it daily so I think I am staying on top of that! They are very afraid of me (I'm sure they're not used to me yet) so I can't manage to watch them eat. But I know what you mean, I love to watch my Cory cats eat in my main tank. (;

I've stopped the ich treatment since I haven't seen it resurface, but I will keep a close eye on them. I'm still wondering if the levamisole hcl would be a good precautionary idea however, because I have read that it doesn't harm unaffected fish.

Thank you for the advice, and the welcome!!

[Graeme McKellar]

Hi and welcome to Loachaholics Anonomous
I understand it is a good idea to give your Kubotia a Levamisole treatment as they are wild-caught and wild-caught Botia are usually infected with Nematodes and Gill Flukes. The Levamisole will treat the Nematodes but Praziquantel will be needed for Gill Flukes and will also treat tapeworms. Have you read the excellent article Shari wrote on Levamisole use on Loaches.
I got 5 Kubotai a month ago and when I brought them home from the shop they had faded colours but within an hour all the colour had returned and every Loach had checked out every square-inch of my tank from the top to the bottom. They Loach-danced all round the place in a tight group then would break up and search around individually for a few minutes then all come together to dance again. They seemed a happy group indeed so I gave them some Hikari flake which they devoured even making smacking noises as they took it from the surface. Who knows how much they have had to eat in their journey to my tank - probably nothing by the way they ate. My group is active for more than half the day and dance around the front glass every morning until I feed them and most times that I walk up to the tank starts a Loachdance as they "beg" for food. I am just about to start my Levamisole treatment and want to do a bit more research on Praziquantel for the Gill Flukes. I suspect that one of my fish has Gill Flukes as he has been flashing occasionally and that can be a symptom. Graeme.

[LUVaLOACH]

Hello and welcome. It sounds like you have gotten some really good advise, however, I would like to make a suggestion based on my own experience. I finally broke down and got a 10 gal QT tank. I got a heater but the rest of the tank is barren. It has more than paid for itself over the past few months.

I am watching 2 of my kubotia play right now. They are great fish, I sure hope your guys make it. I got mine at PetSmart also and they aren't cheap $20.00. I have had my dealings with ick and in my situation it was a drop in temp. that brought on the ick. So be careful there.

Also stay on top of you water conditions b/c secondary infections are really common (at least for me) when treating.

As far as treating for internal parasites I try not to medicate for more than one thing at a time as these are sensitive fish. Just keep your aeration great and keep and eye on them. Try to get that temp up there and when you bring new fish home keep them in the temp they are accustomed to (not that you don't) just going by what has happened to me in the past.

Good luck,
Kris

[blazeblast]

Thank you all for the wonderful advice!

I am currently looking for a good source of levamisole hcl. I am worried that my local farm supply store will not carry it so I might have to order it online somewhere. If anyone has any suggestions, that would be wonderful. (;

For Praziquantel, I found PraziPro from DrsFosterSmith.com, which is a website I frequently order from. Any experiences with this particular medication?

I will be sure to only medicate with one at a time.

The 10gal QT tank is a good idea, I might actually go with a 20 long however because it will fit on the bottom of my tank stand, I think. (; I will try to set aside some money from my check so I can get one!

Today the loaches have their normal colors--nice, dark black and a little yellow. (; They are very pretty fish! One is still hiding his head (I think he may only do this when I come around) but, the other is swimming around a little and reacts to my presence.

I would like to get them a small cave or something to hide in, but I'm worried it would interfere with the medication. What do you guys think?

Thanks again!

[LUVaLOACH]

Thank you all for the wonderful advice!

I am currently looking for a good source of levamisole hcl. I am worried that my local farm supply store will not carry it so I might have to order it online somewhere. If anyone has any suggestions, that would be wonderful. (;

For Praziquantel, I found PraziPro from DrsFosterSmith.com, which is a website I frequently order from. Any experiences with this particular medication?

I will be sure to only medicate with one at a time.

The 10gal QT tank is a good idea, I might actually go with a 20 long however because it will fit on the bottom of my tank stand, I think. (; I will try to set aside some money from my check so I can get one!

Today the loaches have their normal colors--nice, dark black and a little yellow. (; They are very pretty fish! One is still hiding his head (I think he may only do this when I come around) but, the other is swimming around a little and reacts to my presence.

I would like to get them a small cave or something to hide in, but I'm worried it would interfere with the medication. What do you guys think?

Thanks again!

Hi there, glad to hear they are doing ok today. As fas as the meds, I am really not sue where to tell you to look online as I am fortunate enought to have LFS that have most all meds on hand. I am sure someone with a little more experience will come along and give you a good site to check out.

Now as far as the prazipro, I have heard it works great, just be very careful to dose EXACTLY as it says. Last time I tried to use it, I accidentally overmedicated and killed the whole tank, so it is strong stuff, but from what I hear it works.

Do you mind me asking why you believe they have parasites?

Oh and yes the QT tank is wonderful. I have been fishkeeping for just over a year and I just got mine up and running about 2 months ago and I could kick myself for not doing it sooner, but I had to work it into the budget. Lots of Wal-marts are getting out of the fish business so I have seen their 10 and 20 gallon tanks on sale recently. You may want to check into that.

If you get them something to hide in know that they probably will indeed do just that and you won't really be able to keep a really good eye on them but it won't interfere with the meds at all. What med do you have them on now? Are you testing your water?

Wishing you luck,
Kris

[Ravyn]

For online shopping try http://www.liveaquaria.com I don't drive, by choice, I live just outside of DC and there's really no reason to, so I typically buy everything online. I get all my food there, even with shipping it's cheaper than the LFS that's about 2 miles away (plus I don't have to walk 4 miles). Plus the variety of food and sizes is incredible. I've also purchased subtrate through them, and I should mention all of my fish. Buying fish that way can hit the pocket since I think the shipping is around $35. However, their prices are good and the fish are great. I have 4 clown loaches that have gone from about 2.5" a year ago to between 4 - 5. A BGK that I adore, a bouple angels who have gone in the past year from quarter sized to being 7" tip to top. I've had to use their customer service once, and they were friendly, knowledgeable, and resolved the problem to my satisfaction immediately.

http://www.petdiscounters.com is another place. I use them for filter media, but that's about all. I suppose they would be ok for food and meds so long as you know the brand. I for the most part just don't find their website to be user friendly.

HTH

Ravyn

[blazeblast]

LUVaLOACH:

The loaches look pretty healthy but everything I have read about loaches (especially kubotai) is that, since they are wild-caught, they often have parasites so it's better to go ahead and treat for parasites while they are still in QT, as a failsafe and so you don't potentially introduce parasites into your main tank.

I am just concerned that they aren't eating, and they are pretty skinny and they stay in the back of the tank all the time, which I've read are symptoms of parasites. I don't really know for sure, which is why I'm trying to find out what the safest way to treat them for potential parasites is. (;

I thought maybe they would do better if they had a hiding place, while I wouldn't be able to watch them very closely, they could possibly be less stressed if they had somewhere to hide. Do you think this is a good idea or not? Of course, one of them has found his own hiding place in the gravel. (;

I don't have them on any meds now, the last dose I gave them was of Rid Ich + on Thursday, because one of the original loaches died of ich a few days before. There might still be some of that in the tank but I have been changing the water to hopefully get it all out. I haven't seen any more ich, which is good.

I did test the water, either yesterday or the day before, and ammonia and nitrites were zero. I did not test for nitrates however. I will today. I have been staying on top of water changes as well. When I set up the tank I had moved over some gravel from my main tank, so hopefully some good bacteria rode over on the gravel into the good tank. (;


Ravyn:

I also use http://www.liveaquaria.com/, which is owned by DrsFosterSmith.com, but they don't seem to have any levamisole. Perhaps I have overlooked it?

Speaking of, however, you said you bought all of your fish there. Do you have good experiences with them? I would like to get some plants from them.




Thanks all for the advice!

[Ravyn]

Blaze,

I didn't check the site for the meds you were looking for. Their stock seems so exhaustive, I assumed they would have anything you needed. That's what I get for assuming.

I've gotten plants as well as fish from them. I've managed to kill, ok maybe I could blame it on the fish, every plant except for amazon swords. The plants arrive and as promised. They look healthy, and I freely admit my tank really isn't set up for plant keeping. No special lights, I have a smooth medium/small gravel as substrate, so the failure to thrive is me. One benefit is you get lots of snails. Fish quality is excellent. Much higher than the chain stores I have access to. The family owned stores I'd trust are like a $30 cab ride each way. Cheaper to pay shipping. Unfortunately neither of my roomies, nor my friends that live close by drive either.

I know they're Drs. Foster & Smith. I love the hard catalogs I get every month. The blubs and info bites in them are great fun, never mind wish listing. I'd definately rec getting plants from them, if you have an aquatic green thumb.

Ravyn

[shari2]

Just a couple of clarifications...

the best way to get rid of ich and keep it gone is to keep temperature above 80 F. the higher the temp the quicker the parasites die.

Actually, raising the temp increases the rate of reproduction of the parasite. The rationale for this is that it speeds up the treatment because they are only affected by the meds during their free-swimming stage. To erradicate ich with temperature only the lowest recommended temp I've seen (and some strains won't succumb to it) is 86F. Many recommend temps above 90F...

uneaten food in your tank is bad and causes disease such as ich.

The uneaten food in and of itself doesn't cause ich. It will foul the tank, and raise nitrate levels, which will stress the fish, lower their immunity and leave them susceptible to opportunistic parasites.

Since you've got them in a qtank, treating with levamisole would be a good idea. You could look at the article here and if you would add your location to your profile it would be much easier to recommend sources...

[blazeblast]

Ravyn:

Thanks for the recommendations! I will keep them in mind when I get my big tank setup and I'm ready to stock it.


shari2

I have actually read your article a few times (well, I should say skimmed =X) which is what got me interested in the levamisole hcl initially. I managed to grab the VERY LAST bottle of Levasole my local farm supply store had! I was very excited about this!

So I am going to thoroughly read your article now before I dose the QT tank, but I will add my location anyway. (;



Thanks again, everyone!

[Rubix]

thanks for clearing me up shari... i thoguht id once read that increasing temperature made the lifespan of the parasites much shorter (when free swimming) - which is somewhat what you said but i guess my inexperience left the rest of the details out
also thank you for giving more info on uneaten food. i remember reading something martin said about how uneaten food is one of the worst things for your tank. i know this can lead to ich and other problems down the road B)

[shari2]

You're right. I should have said 'shortens the life span'...but the brain is still on slo-mo today after a weeks 'vacation'.