New to the world of loaches

[Adder]

Hi all,
I added some Clown Loaches to my tank for some snail control and wanted some advise as far as any issues that I might have. They were added to a tank that has been established for three years (they are the first addition to the tank in over two years). The tank footprint is 60"X 18" X 24" the substrate is sand and i have some live plants. I change 30 gal (113.56 liters) once every seven days. The temp of the tank is 79.6F (26.4C).

Water chemistry is as follows:

NH3 = 0 Mg/L
NO2 = 0 Mg/L
NO3 = 20-40 Mg/L
pH = 8.9
Total Hardness = 16 dH

The species that they are housed with are: Cyathopharynx furcifer (Ruziba) which is an omnivore and Wild Caught Cyprichromis sp. Leptosoma (Kitumba) which is a carnivore (Both of these species are not from lake Malawi). They are quite docile species of cichlids, hence the reason I did not add another species of cichlid for snail control as they would "tear" up the species I have in this tank.

I feed a mixture of sprulina and omega one marine flakes (as it contains a higher meat base than their cichlid flake) as well as frozen mysis.

here are a few pics of the tank (prior to the addition of the loaches)

[worldrallynut]

The tangs that you listed prefer a pH of around 8.6. The clowns prefer a -pH of around 6.5-7.0. These fish really shouldn't be kept together.

[Adder]

The tangs that you listed prefer a pH of around 8.6. The clowns prefer a -pH of around 6.5-7.0. These fish really shouldn't be kept together.

OK the pH of the tap water here is 8.0. and my tank is 8.9. The LFS I got them from was at a pH of 8.0 as well. I did drip them for about an hour prior to introduction. Would it then be better for me to set up another tank and use R.O. water with a pH of 7 for them? (I have quite a bit of R.O. as I also keep reef tanks)

[Martin Thoene]

Hi Adder and welcome to LOL.
That's a very nice tank you have there and beautiful cichlids.
Your post is extremely informative which makes giving advice far easier for us.
Unfortunately, you should have come here and posted before getting your Clown Loaches. We would have directed you to this article:

http://www.loaches.com/articles/why-loa ... i-cichlids

While this article is focussed on Lake Malawi cichlids the water requirements of your Tangs are even more contrary to those required by Clowns for long term health and welfare than those of Malawis.

I won't say anymore. If you read the excellent article you will see the incompatability.

Martin.

[Adder]

Hi Adder and welcome to LOL.
That's a very nice tank you have there and beautiful cichlids.
Your post is extremely informative which makes giving advice far easier for us.
Unfortunately, you should have come here and posted before getting your Clown Loaches. We would have directed you to this article:

http://www.loaches.com/articles/why-loa ... i-cichlids

While this article is focussed on Lake Malawi cichlids the water requirements of your Tangs are even more contrary to those required by Clowns for long term health and welfare than those of Malawis.

I won't say anymore. If you read the excellent article you will see the incompatability.

Martin.

Thank you for the info. (my 1st mistake was listening to my friend on the matter). I will admit that most all of my 24 years in the aquarium hobby have been devoted to Cichlids and salt water tanks in the last 10 years. My reasoning for not going with a species of Cichlid for the task of snail killing was that those particular species are not agressive and that the species that I would need for the removal of snails would of killed the (somewhat hard to get) species in my tank. I had thought about getting a Synodontis multipunctatus however they tend to bother these species of cichlid at night when they rest on the bottom. Well I will have to figgure out a solution to this issue as my other F.W. tank has the same water conditions as the tank they are currently in.

[MTS]

I suspect the cichlids can come down some in pH. I buy most of mine from Wet Thumb (www.wetthumbaquatics.com) where they are raised in 7.2 pH with a hardness of 240 ppm and a temperature of 80 degrees. If your tank is buffered by rock, it will be hard to lower the pH and you would want to do it very gradually.

I don't recommend keeping loaches and African together but I suspect you could find a compromise such that it can be done. Still, you may find that you fall so in love with your loaches that you create a perfect tank for them.

[Adder]

I suspect the cichlids can come down some in pH. I buy most of mine from Wet Thumb (www.wetthumbaquatics.com) where they are raised in 7.2 pH with a hardness of 240 ppm and a temperature of 80 degrees. If your tank is buffered by rock, it will be hard to lower the pH and you would want to do it very gradually.

I don't recommend keeping loaches and African together but I suspect you could find a compromise such that it can be done. Still, you may find that you fall so in love with your loaches that you create a perfect tank for them.

I use a couple of different items in my Tanganyikan tanks. The first is Cichlid lake salt by seachem it is dosed at 11g/ 10gal and 1g contains the following:
Calcium (min) 3.24 %
Calcium (max) 3.50 %
Magnesium (min) 11.83 %
Potassium (min) 10.08 %
sodium (min) 3.53 %
Sodium (max) 3.75 %
Aluminum (min) 0.90 mg
Iodine (min) 0.02 mg
Iron (min) 0.20 mg
In addition I use seachem Tanganyikan buffer. As far as rocks I do have some calcium based rocks (approx. 50 lbs) in the aquarium and about 20 lbs of flag stone. These rocks are to provide refuge for the females from the dominate males. However typically these species of cichlids are not rock dwellers. I suspect that I will end up getting a set-up for the loaches. If I do this would R.O. water be the best choice to start out with as my tap waters pH is 8? In addition would my current tank that they are in work for a while, as I will need to buy a new one. I am thinking of moving these cichlids to another tank thats atleast 72" in length. When I do so will the current tank size they are in be good? (once I change the decor and get the pH and gH to their needs)

[MTS]

You will probably want to start planning for your loach tank. I doubt you will be able to bring down the pH 8 tap water without using RO. You can go totally RO and buffer it to the desired pH or you can mix with tap water to bring down pH.

To make your loaches a bit happier, you can bring down the pH and soften the water by diluting with RO in your current set-up. Just make the changes gradually. So far, it sounds like they have adjusted to whats in your tank. Then, when you transfer your loaches to their perfect set-up--also remember they will need to acclimate to the softer, lower pH water.

We once got a pair of German Rams and even though we slowly introduced them to their new tank, we managed to kill them. We didn't understand since we gave them the conditions that should have been perfect for them. Then we found out that the dealer we got them from had them in a tank that was pH 8 and loaded with aquarium salt (almost marine conditions). A couple hours was not enough for the fish to adjust to the lower pH and softer water.

[Adder]

Well I was able to watch them for a while and wow they are neat fish. They are all quite active spending their time picking through the sand and rocks for food. Once they come across snail they make short work of it (I have quite a few shells now on the bottom). They also go crazy during feeding time. This was especially true when I did my nightly feeding of mysis, they ate quite a bit as they sank to the bottom. These guys are quite interesting fish indeed

[sophie]

I was thinking that someone who took as good care of those chiclids wasn't going to be happy about a compromise in either direction...

that's three pretty specialist set-ups you'll have

[MTS]

They call them clown loaches for a good reason. They are very entertaining.

[Adder]

I was thinking that someone who took as good care of those chiclids wasn't going to be happy about a compromise in either direction...

that's three pretty specialist set-ups you'll have

Thank you You are right. Thats why I will be placing the Clowns in their own tank and dealing with the snails myself.

[Adder]

I did have another question. Instead of doing a manifold in the tank would it be just as good to drill the tank on both sides. Then run that to a wet/dry and then pump it back on the opposite end. I have already thought about the power failure senerio. I could place a float switch in my sump so my tank would not drain on the floor. Here is a crude pic of what I was thinking of.

[Martin Thoene]

The only way I can see your idea working based on the drawing is if you have electric solenoid valves in both feed and return pipes that bias to shut in the event of a power failure. Problem there is if the intake solenoid fails the return will dump all the sump back to the tank and cause an overflow.A float switch is used to control power on or off based on water level, but it doesn't stop actual water flow by syphon action.

Intakes for sump systems usually work on a bottom drill of the tank with a stand-pipe coming up to near the surface. Either that or a weir draining into a box with a bottom drilled hole.The actual intake is at the top of the standpipe and this determines water-level. Return comes in high too and once power is cut only minimal water can drain from the tank into the sump.

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

You can run a spraybar return at low level in the tank, but it must either come over the top or through the end high-mounted and feature a syphon break hole just below the set water level. Drain back to the sump will stop once the hole is exposed and air enters.

Martin.

[MTS]

Can't help any with the sump system. We use Eheim canisters and bio-wheel HOBs on our larger tanks. Something about drilling holes in an aquarium disturbs me. Clowns like current but I'm not sure the river tank manifold design is really as important for them as for the hillstream loaches. Martin can answer this.

I am a recent member of this forum-- like you, we started with a single clown loach because the clerk at Petsmart suggested getting one for snail control. We fell in love with the clown loach personality and antics. Now we have six in a 55 that are about to move to a larger tank.

Loaches don't do to well with plants and most of the snails come in with plants we've purchased for other tanks. Now we find ourselves picking out snails from other tanks to give the loaches as treats.