PLEASE help to Stop the Death

[lordgreggreg]

Ok, so I have had my loach tank running for about a year and a half now.

I recently upgraded the filter because two of my loaches got sick and died.

They started getting verry skinny and had red gills and were swimming at the top (trying to get more oxygen i think).

Before they died they had dropsy symptoms and couldn't really move much, etc.

So what is killing them and how do i stop it.

Here, I brought you some pictures (that i took)... they have red around the gills and they have sometimes some red around the tail. None of them are really skinny yet, and I am feeding them very well.

Right.. time for the 1000 words part.







no comments about the editing...

I have a huge 4400 gallon pond UV Filter (2000 gallons an hour) that has been going for 4 days now. I am hoping this will obliterate my loaches nemesis.

[ckk125]

if it is dropsy, it can only be bacterial infection and the best way is to use antibiotics.

Do it soon before it is too late.

[chefkeith]

Nice looking loaches. It's difficult to say what wrong.

If you haven't been doing water changes, then do a large water change that could cause this problem.

How often do you do water changes and how much water is changed?
What are the parameters of the source water?
I ask because the nitrates look a little bit high, but not too bad.

Have you added any new fish recently? If so, did you quarantine them first?
Are you feeding them live foods? frozen foods? Worm type foods can go bad and cause problems.

[clownloachfan]

intersting. Can you take a pic of the area right behind the gills? There appears to be this bubble that i have been talking about. This would help us in the diagnosis.

[lordgreggreg]

@clownloachfan
What area exactly? I think that pictures 2 and 3 should show what you are talking about. I would be happy to take any more pictures that you need.

@chefkeith
I have been doing water changes about once every 3 weeks. The two that died were getting sick durring this time. I recently did a big water change when I upgraded the filtration system.

Normally I change about 5 gallons with tap water that as been declorinated. I am not sure of the parameters, and will let you know one it is day again.

The nitrates have been consistatnly high... for many months now. They are at an all time low thanks to the new filtration system, and a moss ball I put in. They used to be in the 80-120 range.

No new fish for over 6 months.

@ckk125 well, when I say dropsy, I really just mean how their spine looks, and how the act in the final stages. It may be bacterial, I am not sure.

Shouldn't the UV light take care of all bacteria? Or should I go ahead and remove my filtration to apply medicine?


Thank you guys so much for your time and help, it means so much to me.

[Blue]

Shouldn't the UV light take care of all bacteria? Or should I go ahead and remove my filtration to apply medicine?

UV will not remove all bacteria. They have to pass the system to be eliminated. What makes you think you should be using medicines without proper diagnosis yet? Meds can harm your fish and biofiltration if not used properly. I've never seen cases where loaches become skinny and then exhibit dropsy. Dropsy normally is associated with protruding abdomen, pop-eyes and protrusion of scales although not all these appear. And for the record, dropsy is more of a sign of poor water quality or indicator of something wrong on your part than a disease itself.

[lordgreggreg]

Shouldn't the UV light take care of all bacteria? Or should I go ahead and remove my filtration to apply medicine?

UV will not remove all bacteria. They have to pass the system to be eliminated. What makes you think you should be using medicines without proper diagnosis yet? Meds can harm your fish and biofiltration if not used properly. I've never seen cases where loaches become skinny and then exhibit dropsy. Dropsy normally is associated with protruding abdomen, pop-eyes and protrusion of scales although not all these appear. And for the record, dropsy is more of a sign of poor water quality or indicator of something wrong on your part than a disease itself.

Thank you blue. I do not want to use medication unless I need to, ofcourse, I was advised to in my first post.

I would think that at 2000 gallons an hour...means that about every 2 minutes all the water has gone through the filter...and there is no stagnenet water in there.

I must have been wrong about dropsy. What I means was bent spine, nothing else.
No scale or abdomenom protrusion, no pop eyes, etc.

I have been keep ing a weekly record of the water conditions, amonia and nitrates have always stayed at near zero, ph slowly varies between 7 and 7.4, hardness doesn not budge, nitrates have been comming down from around 120.


EDIT: As an immiditate treatment I am going to do a large water change of ... 15 gallons , tomrow afternoon. This seems safe to me... I will be getting this water from walmart, they have some culigan water system there that is UV, RO and all other filtrated.[/b]

[chefkeith]

Don't use RO water for water changes unless you pre mix the proper minerals back into the source water before the water change . You need to be really careful with the measurements if you start doing this. Otherwise just use the tap water that you were normally using.

Your fish were suffering from OTS, old tank syndrom, which is a water quality problem. The high Nitrates was an indicator of this. Nitrates alone isn't the problem, but it is the pollutants that migrate with nitrates that are the cause. These pollutants also called DOC's (dissolved organic carbons) and cannot be measured by normal test kits, but Nitrates is a good indicator of them in an non planted tank.

You really need to have a better water change routine since your tank is overstocked. You'll probably need to do atleast 25% per week water changes. Even better would be 20% water changes 2 times per week.

When the nitrates were as high as they were and you were doing water changes that put the fish through alot osmotic stress. This would explain the inflamation and redness around the gills and with the bloating.

The bloating is an end result of an internal organ failure and them filling up with fluid. Osmotic shock can cause the organs to fail, if the gills aren't completely destroyed first.

[shari2]

The first thing I thought was, "Wow! That's way overstocked."

Yes, you have good filtration (now) but if your nitrates were usually 80-120 that's a problem.

Also, I'm not real familiar with UV filters, but don't you want one that allows the water maximum contact with the UV for a decent amount of time? Too fast a flow doesn't work well, I thought?

Stressed fish become sick fish, some sooner than others depending on their susceptibility. Like humans, some fish are just 'tougher' than others and will get sick less easily. Sounds like the long term exposure to the poor water quality has taken a toll on your fish. Redness in the caudal and gills is one symptom of deteriorating water quality. I'm betting that with a better water change regime you can turn this around.

With the stocking level you have, it would be far better to change about 25% of your water weekly, or even more. I agree with chefkeith that you should not use RO. Use dechlorinated tap water as you have been doing.

Clowns need really clean water, and they will need a bigger tank in the not too distant future. And you really are overstocked, imo. Sorry...

[Ardillakilla]

With few exceptions, nitrate is the end of the nitrogen cycle in freshwater aquaria. It can only be removed with water changes. As already mentioned, nitrate levels are a proxy for other pollutants and high levels are an indicator of poor water quality.

Except in extremely rare and unusual circumstances, no amount of water turnover is going to improve water quality. Nitrogen can only enter the aquarium in the form of food or other biomass (new fish). There, it either becomes ammonia then nitrite then nitrate or is sequestered in biomass (plants, fish, algae, etc.). The vast majority will go through the cycle and become nitrate. When organisms die, their decomposition is a reversal of the sequestration of nitrogen but dead animals and plants are usually removed from aquariums.

The only inputs are adding food or animals/plants to the aquarium. The only outputs are removing them or removing water via water changes. Increasing filtration rate will not lower nitrate levels. At best, it will speed up the conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and limit the build up of ammonia and nitrite.

My general recommendation is 50% water changes weekly.

The only alternatives to changing out sufficient amounts of water on a regular basis are lots of plants (combined with low stocking/feeding levels) and various denitration methods (I'm not aware of any methods that work outside of marine tanks).

[Diana]

More water movement will not remove nitrates. Removing nitrates with water changes is the way to go here. Do not do large water changes, though. The longstanding bad conditions have created some water chemistry conditions that the fish are used to.
For a tank with Old Tank Syndrome I would suggest several small water changes per week, then slightly bigger ones, then slightly bigger ones. The goal is to slowly change the water chemistry from what it is to something that is a closer match to the tap (or other supply), then keep up larger water changes so the conditions do not back slide.

Example:
With each water change vacuum the gravel as much as you can. A 10% water change will not allow much of a gravel vac, so do one part of the tank the first day, another part of the tank the next time...
First week: 10% water changes every other day. (4 water changes)
Second Week: 15% water changes every other day. (3 water changes)
Third week: 20% water changes every other day (4 water changes)
Fourth week: 25% water changes every other day. (3 water changes)

Monitor the water conditions: Ammonia, Nitrite ought to remain at 0 ppm.
Nitrate might not change at first, the water changes are so small that the fish add more waste as fast as you are removing it. By the end of the second week the nitrates will be coming down slowly.
pH, KH and GH will change slowly at first, and get closer to the tap water levels. The goal is to not change the pH more than .2 per day, and the KH and GH not more than 1 degree per day.
If you have a TDS monitor you will notice that the tank and tap will get closer to the same reading.

If after the fourth week the conditions are much closer to the tap, then see how long your tank can go between water changes. Use Nitrate to test this.
Get the nitrate below 20 ppm, and see how long it takes to reach 20 ppm. Do as big a water change as you need to get the nitrate back down below 20 ppm.
An overstocked tank will raise the nitrates very fast, and I think you will find you need to do a couple of water changes per week, perhaps 25% or more.

[lordgreggreg]

Thank you guys so much for all of your help. I have read and understand all of this stuff before, I supose I just kinda forgot how important water changes are.

We did a 12 gallon water change just now to start off with. (The stuff we found with the gravel vac was pretty bad too)

Got a lot of junk out of the fish tank, basically stired up all of the water , and the filter system took care of it in about a hour, back to crystal clear.

I plan to add in more plants to help with the nitrate problem, Right now I only have one, (and the loaches are leaving it alone for now )

I also have that purigen stuff, which is suposed to be really really good at removing nitrates.

Ofcourse, I know better than to think that this will remove the need for water changes.

Here are the parameters of my tap water.

Amonia 0.6 ppm (there is poop in my water!?!)
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Ph 7.5

I am surprized that there are distinct levels of amonia in my water, but seince It has been a long time seince I have detected any in my tank, my filter must be very good at dealing with it
(just something to watch for, to make sure i dont to large water changes)

I really really hope that this fixes the problem.

Also, yeah... my tank is overstocked right now... but If you have noticed... I plan on getting a bigger one soon. Im thinking 500 gallons or more once I get the oportunity.

Thank you so much for your help. Its amazing that just got about 5 pages of profesional, experienced, and specific information. What you have going here is truly amazing.

(oh, and i just finshed curing 2 pices of drift wood, and the loaches LOVE them)

[chefkeith]

You're Welcome LordG,

I'm still curious though, what is the hardness of the tap water?

Also, what tap water conditioners or dechlorenators have you been using?

[Tinman]

Hello,
The large gravel you have is really a very good trap for waste. I personally use no gravel and have only sand for my loaches now. This problem you have is caused by in-attention and that is multiplied by the large gravel. I would slowly remove it and eventually replace it with plain pool filter sand . It is inexpensive and you will be very surprised at the way stuff stays on it as opposed to in it, plus it looks SO much better. When I finally realized colored rocks were for me and not my fish I really started having much more success. The redness is caused by dirty water and the gravel is really adding to the problem. Everybody buys a tank,filter and rocks....the rocks should be left out unless specifically needed for a fishes requirements. The flow you have will lift all the waste to your filter and make life much simpler for you and safer fer yer fish..... Dianna .ChefKeith,and Shari nailed this for you...and Blue was very astute about the overuse of meds.......we should discuss the flow over your UV too. It is rated for flow and should be followed or less or it is useless and the lamp life is very short also......

[lordgreggreg]

Hello,
The large gravel you have is really a very good trap for waste. I personally use no gravel and have only sand for my loaches now. This problem you have is caused by in-attention and that is multiplied by the large gravel. I would slowly remove it and eventually replace it with plain pool filter sand . It is inexpensive and you will be very surprised at the way stuff stays on it as opposed to in it, plus it looks SO much better. When I finally realized colored rocks were for me and not my fish I really started having much more success. The redness is caused by dirty water and the gravel is really adding to the problem. Everybody buys a tank,filter and rocks....the rocks should be left out unless specifically needed for a fishes requirements. The flow you have will lift all the waste to your filter and make life much simpler for you and safer fer yer fish..... Dianna .ChefKeith,and Shari nailed this for you...and Blue was very astute about the overuse of meds.......we should discuss the flow over your UV too. It is rated for flow and should be followed or less or it is useless and the lamp life is very short also......

Hmm,, pool filter sand... I have always thouhgt of doing this. I am not to big on the rocks either, and would LOVE it if crap didnt get in there. The more crap in the water, the better chance the filter has of getting to it.

and yeah, i remeber at my parents house... the whole meidcation path... doesnt really work very well. I decided a UV filter wa all I am going to do, unless i have a dire circumstance, (and if so, i have a quarntine tank for that)

"pool filter sand" i supose i would get it at a pool store... are you sure its non toxic? I try not to trust pool stuff because .. there stuff is safe for humans to live in for an hour or two... not a tiny fish for a lifetime.

perhaps you could tell me the brand of yours.

now, my uv filter thingy is rated for a 4400 gallon pond. The max flow rate is 2200 gallons of water an hour. Just above the flow of my pump (although I belive that the extra tubing has lowered that a little bit)

OH! the hardness of my tap water.... i dont have any more test for that XD. I will buy some more next chance i get. sorry :/