Stiphodon genus of the Goby

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plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:05 am

Wonderful pics odyssey, as always! Thanks for sharing. I have recently bought one of the 'orange fin' sp. He is very shy and won't yet let me get a good shot of him. Did Dr. Mukai put as name to this species?
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What do you think this fish is? I've been thinking it's a female "blue moon", but now I'm not sure? It's in a tank with an obvious male and the male treats it like another male, always chasing it away! I've studies your tutorial on females and just when i think I can tell the difference, NOT!
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Thanks wassercheu for the algae recipe :wink:
Last edited by plaalye on Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matt
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Post by Matt » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:03 pm

Hi Odyssey wow how many individual fish are there in that last sequence of pics?

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odyssey
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Post by odyssey » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:17 am

Hi Matt.
There are no confidences so much.
There may be 17 individuals in last sequence of "Orange-fin" male pictures.

Hi plaalye.
Dr. Mukai mentioned that it's unclear as of 2004.
He was the scholar studying goby and kept "Orange-fin".
Those DNA analyses were also done, but he doesn't fix the ID easily.
I believe the ID decided by an old method to be corrected substantially by the spread of a DNA analysis eventually.

The male applies to neither S.percnopterygionus, "Orange-fin" nor "Rainbow-color".
Therefore when it's I, it's applied to "Blue-moon" group.
But the "Blue-monn" group is most troublesome for me.
Image collection of a group of "Blue-moon" has been finished, so it's indicated below.


Many fishes of the Stiphodon genus are imported from the Indonesian outskirts.
These are called "Blue-moon" or" Metallic-blue " in Japan.
I suppose that probably S.semoni will be included in this group.
The fin of this group is transparent, and the pattern is simple, too.
However, this will be a fundamental color pattern.
I have not yet watched their male sexual excitement in my tank.
They will surely change a color of the body at the time of the sexual excitement like other Stiphodon, too.
Mr.Taro observes a breeding action of "Blue-moon".
http://www17.tok2.com/home2/tarogoby/b_bluemoon.html

This group disturbs me most.
I do not know the boundary line which distinguishes S.atropurpureus from S.semoni by appearance.
By mention of Fish-base, there is it with "dorsal fins with narrow red margin".
However, their color of the body changes.
When the red margin disappears, on earth I distinguish how?
I realized that a male color of the body of Stiphodon changed drastically.


The color of their body with the luster changes by an angle.
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A presence with the design of the dorsal fin isn't certain.
Anyway, those aren't invariable.
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The fleck pattern looks faint in a dorsal fin at this time.
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It is said that both S.semoni and S.atropurpureus are distributed over the Philippines.
I looked at their natural habitat in the Philippines.
I saw the male that had the black dorsal fin with blue and black color of the body.
And I saw another male that a dorsal fin is transparent in a golden color of the body too.
Is it S.atropurpureus that the fin is black? and is it S.semoni that the fin is transparent? ?
Two types inhabit together, and I think that the two types depend on the difference of the sexual excitement.
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How would the person of mention of the ID distinguish 2 species without depending on a color pattern? ?
I hope that this trouble is solved in the near future by DNA analysis.

I suffer from the individual imported from Taiwan, too.
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/sredsun/arti ... l=a&fid=16

The site that introduced a natural habitat in Taiwan
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/sredsun/arti ... l=a&fid=19

It has been sometimes imported as S.atropurpureus from Taiwan recently.
However,whether the edge of the dorsal fin is red depends on in case of.
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I think that probably they came from Taiwan. However, the dorsal fin does not have the red hemming.
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The Indonesian guy seems to recognize the Taiwanese guy to be a rival.
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Okinawa(Japan) and Taiwan are next around the sea.
Ishigakijima island in Okinawa and Taiwan aren't only about 270 km away.
It is the distance that their fry drifts by the Kuroshio Current in two or three days.
Okinawa of the Japanese southern part is northern limit of the distribution of Stiphodon genus.
S.atropurpureus inhabits there just a little, too
The state in a natural habitat of S.atropurpureus of Japanese Okinawa and Amami-shoto Islands.
http://island.geocities.jp/churamizu/ko ... zuhaze.htm
http://amami-gobies.amamiensis.com/news ... ureus.html
http://tsudoi-company.com/photogallery/ ... zuhaze.htm
Last edited by odyssey on Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not used to English. Therefore,It is likely to sometimes misunderstand it.

plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:34 pm

Thanks odyssey! So it's definitely a female. I haven't seen any color in the fins of mine but they are young, That might change with age. I have a feeling we are dealing with at least 2 different species here.
Have you seen this one?
http://www.mnhn.fr/sfi/cybium/numeros/p ... %20325.pdf

plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:29 pm

Stiphodon atropurpureus (Herre, 1927) is rediagnosed. Common in the Philippines, it is rare in Japan and Taiwan. It is distinguished in usually having 15 pectoral rays, 9 segmented second dorsal fin rays, and 30-33 lateral scales. Males are distinguished from other species in having a patch of white fatty tissue posterior to lower base of pectoral fin, first dorsal fin spines not elongate or filamentous, body and head grayish in preservation, in life with a bright metallic green stripe above the midline turning bright blue after death. Females with a zigzag-like midlateral stripe and never with fatty tissue posterior to pectoral base.

I found this description and have been looking to see if this (red text) is evident in any of the pictures. It could be hidden by the pectoral fin and difficult to see? This is the only possiblity I found.
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I hope you don't mind my reposting your pic odyssey. Can you see this feature, a patch of white fatty tissue as explained in the description, in any of your fish?

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odyssey
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Post by odyssey » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:02 am

Hi plaalye!!
I'm very thankful.
My worries were canceled.
The one I was asking is the invariable feature by the digital difference (1 or 0).
The male body color of Stiphodon turns big, so the distinction by the analog difference isn't effective.

I didn't know what "patch of white fatty tissue posterior to pectoral base" showed specifically.
http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Country/Co ... ies=semoni
This feature is probably invariable, even when the color pattern of the body and the fin changed drastically.

The males which came from Indonesia.
They have "patch of white fatty tissue posterior to pectoral base".
A possibility which is S.semoni is high.
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The males which came from Taiwan
They seem to have no "patch of white fatty tissue posterior to pectoral base".
I can judge that those are S.atropurpureus.
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Thank you for introducing a document about Stiphodon sapphirinus.
I saw for the first time. The male long dorsal fin would be characteristic and be a point of distinction.
They should change the color drastically as usual about the body color, too, so one specimen picture is only their aspect.
Many thanks!
I am not used to English. Therefore,It is likely to sometimes misunderstand it.

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Matt
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Post by Matt » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:30 am

Guys that fatty deposit thing is only used by the authors to separate S. atropurpureus from the other species discussed in the paper i.e. S. imperiorientis and S. percnopterygionus. From what I can gather S. atropurpureus and S. semoni are very closely related though (the fin ray counts are basically identical) so maybe this fatty deposit occurs in all members of this 'blue-striped group'?
Last edited by Matt on Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:47 pm

I'm confused also! I thought this was a distinguishing charachteristic between the two, atropurpureus with-semoni without, but the descriptions we have seem to contradict each other. or i'm reading them wrong? Odyssey seems to have species with, and without the PATCH. I was watching a young male go crazy on a much larger male( in the same shop where mine came from) yesterday. His body turned very dark, charcoal gray, and the white PATCH was very clear!
Lets see what the papers say when you get them Matt.
odyssey, I would defer to Matt's interpretation over mine, he's better at reading these very confusing documents!

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Matt
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Post by Matt » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:22 pm

Jim read them carefully, they don't contradict each other.

Have edited my earlier post for easier reading.
Last edited by Matt on Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:35 am

OK, I think I've got it. My reading comprehension ability has gone with my hair!
I took this..."Males are distinguished from other species in having a patch of white fatty tissue posterior to lower base of pectoral fin"..... to mean that it distinguished s. atropurpureus from all other species of stiphodon, when it fact it was meant to distinguished them from the other 2 species in the article. Thnaks for the clarity Matt!
Please forgive me odyssey for passing on my confusion. I don't know what to say about those fish without the PATCH????

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Matt
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Post by Matt » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:15 am

That's it Jim. *thumbs up*

Looking through Odyssey's links all the ones featuring atropurpureus depict males with red-tipped fins which other 'blue-striped' species don't seem to have. You guys think this is a defining character?

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odyssey
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Post by odyssey » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:53 am

Hi Matt ,plaalye!

When the "patch of white fatty tissue" was the feature of S.semoni, I can be convinced.
In my web search,
The site mentioned with "patch of white fatty tissue" as the feature of S.atropurpureus" is only "aqua International Journal 3 (2)".
http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.p ... &Itemid=45

There is no mentioning of the feature in S.atropurpureus in Fishbase.
http://fishbase.org/summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=51779

There is mentioning of the feature in explanation of S.semoni and S.carisa in Fishbase.
http://www.fishbase.gr/Summary/SpeciesS ... p?id=26587
http://www.fishbase.gr/Summary/SpeciesS ... p?id=63733
?????
Doesn't mentioning of" aqua International Journal 3 (2)" have a possibility with the mistake?

The red-tipped fins is effective as distinction, but that sometimes goes off.


By the way,
the number of individuals is very little, so Stiphodon imperiorientis is the species which can rarely be seen.
Stiphodon imperiorientis seems near "Rainbow-color" and S.elegans hereditarily according to a mitocondria DNA analysis.
http://tsudoi-company.com/photogallery/ ... zuhaze.htm
http://island.geocities.jp/churamizu/hayasebuzuhaze.htm
http://www17.tok2.com/home2/tarogoby/zu ... ayase.html
http://amami-gobies.amamiensis.com/news ... ientis.htm
I am not used to English. Therefore,It is likely to sometimes misunderstand it.

plaalye
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Post by plaalye » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:43 am

Thanks for the links to s. imperiorientis odyssey! They are indeed similar. In these pics at least, they don't seem to get as dark as the pics we have of s. elegans and s atratus. I think my "Rainbow-color" look the most like s. atratus

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s. elegans

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your pic of s. atratus Matt



"Stiphodon imperiorientis seems near "Rainbow-color" and S.elegans hereditarily according to a mitocondria DNA analysis. "

Does this mean that "Rainbow-color" and s. elegans have been proven to be different species??

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Matt
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Post by Matt » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:15 pm

Is that paper available Odyssey? Even just a summary of the results could be useful!

The S. imperiorientis looks similar to Afroturf's fish earlier in the thread. What do you think? Edit - forget this, plaalye has already corrected me.

By the way Jim I'm pretty sure your fish is S. atratus if that photo is accurately identified (it should be) - yours looks identical. We need the description paper to be sure though.

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Kajsa12
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Post by Kajsa12 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:11 am

Hi Odyssey,

Great thread you have here with a lot of information. :D

On page 2 in this thread you make a difference between the Rainbowcolor and S. pelewensis.
Do you think they are different species?
And can you observe a difference in length between these specimen?

I've got 3 male Stiphodon (and 7 probably female).
One of them resembles your Rainbowcolor and is 6/6.5 cm
Another resembles your S. pelewensis and reaches 4/4.5 cm
Both are in my tank for 13 months, but can look very similar.

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