What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

The place for all discussions not loach-related concerning freshwater fish keeping. All our members keep other fish so you may benefit from their experience.

Moderator: LoachForumModerators

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:32 pm

Please help me. This is my first aquarium, and I'm having problems.

I have a 20 gallon tall tank and use a Marineland Penguin 150 power filter with biowheel. I have a rolling moss ball, 2 hillstream butterfly loaches (Beaufortia kweichowensis), and 5 pearl danios. I do a 25% water change each week (I vacuum the gravel while doing this.), change out one of the filter cartridges every other week, and clean the filter once a month.

My water qualities were fine until two weeks ago. Two things appeared all of a sudden in my water - ammonia and little (about 6-7mm long) worms. When I prepare the water for the partial water changes, I do it the day before. I add several API products (Stress Coat, Stress Zyme, Aquarium Salt, and Proper pH 7.0) and Kent R/O Right to the water (following the directions). Anyway, once I detected the ammonia (nitrites were still showing 0ppm), I immediately did a partial water change, but that didn't seem to lower the ammonia level. I then followed the directions and used API's Ammo Lock. After the treatment, my water was still showing ammonia. I know that the Ammo Lock doesn't remove the ammonia, but instead changes it to a form that won't harm the fish, but the ammonia should have been gone by the end of the treatment and it wasn't. Nitrites still show as 0ppm, and the nitrates have been rather consistent around 20ppm the entire time. I did a 50% water change, but couldn't vacuum the gravel since I noticed several baby danios (much to my surprise) in the tank. Still this didn't lower the ammonia level, so I started the Ammo Lock treatment again. What could possibly be going on? I don't think I'm overfeeding the fish. Why can't I get rid of the ammonia? What are these worms? How did they get there? How can I get rid of them? Are they causing the ammonia? PLEASE HELP!

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:46 pm

I found a website that explained the white worms to be planaria. I read that planaria tend to be present in aqauariums with too much food left over on/in the gravel. I also know that too much waste creates ammonia. This seems to be the cycle, except I don't see any left over food particles on/in the gravel. Nor do I see food waste in the bucket when I do partial water changes with vacuuming the gravel. (These are some of the reasons I didn't think I was overfeeding - along with not seeing much food sink to the bottom as the danios eat it right away.) Regardless of not seeing it, this is apparently the problem. I know that I need to do another partial water change with vacuuming of the gravel, but when will it be safe to do that so that I don't lose the little babies in the tank? Also, do you think I should try adding another type of biological starter to the tank to help get rid of the ammonia problem since the API starter doesn't seem to be taking hold?

RIFF-RAFF
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:02 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by RIFF-RAFF » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:50 pm

Ok, First of all i would stop throwing every chemical you can find into your tank.
Can you give exact water readings and which test kit are you using the liquid ones or the test strips? Test strips never seem to be very accurate, about the best liquid test kit i've found and heard of is the API master test kit.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/API-Freshwate ... 3cb12089ce
When changing the water i would use seachem prime (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seachem-500ml ... 336c912fd3) instead of everything else that will dechlorinate and remove ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites all in one go as well as help the slime coat. The link to the prime is the biggest bottle you can get which would cover a 20 gallon tank for about 2 years. If you do use this i would double the normal dose until you have a fully cycled tank.
To begin with as your tank is not cycled you will see an ammonia rise, Don't let this get over 1ppm (0.5 is far better)
then a nitrite rise and the ammonia will drop then finaly your nitrates will start to rise. Don't try removing them completely, you never will. Keeping them stable around 20-40 is safe.
I had those little white worms once before in another tank i had that was well established and found them to be something to do with good bacteria eating all the rubbish in the gravel (Found that out after i got rid of them all). I would leave them their unless otherwise told to remove them.

Below is a link that will explain more fully about what i'm on about with the bio filter cycle.
http://oscarfishlover.com/helpful-artic ... n-aquarium

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:33 pm

Thanks for your reply. I don't mean to come off sounding mean, but I don't think you read my post carefully. As I mentioned, my tank was completely cycled prior to my adding any fish. I did a fishless ammonia cycle that took a little over a month to complete. (I used Dr. Tim's Aquatics One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria with it.) I've had the fish since the end of August and my water parameters have always been fine until recently. Hence my post for help. I have well water and that is why I have to add all the things that I have to add to the water. I'll look into Seachem prime to see if it will meet all the needs of my water. I understand water chemistry. I understand the nitrogen cycle. I know what levels are necessary for fish in general and for the fish I've chosen to have in my care. It's all the other stuff that pops up that I'm learning as I go.

Thanks again for the suggestion of Seachem Prime and for the links. Oh, to answer your questions: 1. I use the liquid testers for ammonia and pH and then also use the test strips for everything else, 2. pH is between 7.0 and 7.2, 3. KH is between 160 and 180ppm, 4. GH is between very soft and soft, 5. Nitrites show 0ppm, 6. Nitrates show 20ppm, 7. Chlorine is 0ppm, and finally, 8. Ammonia shows about 4ppm, but remember that I've used the Ammo Lock.

RIFF-RAFF
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:02 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by RIFF-RAFF » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:14 pm

Sorry i misread some of that, even though it is possible that your tank is still going through a cycle, I've never been a great fan of the fishless cycle.
Its funny as i'm going through a similar problem with my oscar/arowana tank at present also using well water. But my filters been established for a few years now.
But then again that water only suffers from high nitrates.
For now i would keep doing 25-50% water changes daily with the prime. Even if you have to keep using the rest it will still help with your ammonia.
Is it possible that your bio in the filter has been killed in any way?
If that doesn't start to drop them within a few days we may have to think of something more drastic for you.
In the meantime i will ask about oscarfish lover website for you as their used to this kind of thing with how messy oscars are. If i get any ideas i'll give you a shout. Keep me updated though please.

KathyRRozier
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:18 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by KathyRRozier » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:30 am

Care: Inhabit fast flowing waters of the highlands on the rocks. Aquarium must duplicate these conditions as fish have very high oxygen requirement.

With all sucker-type Hillstream species, attention is the same in general. We all need a good water flow and aeration, numerous rocky hiding places and rocks and boulders to graze over. Lighting should be bright to encourage algal growth in the aquarium. Plants are not necessary as the fish not normally found in nature, but it will help with water quality. Plants suitable for high-flow environments are Anubias and Microsoreum. They grow on rocks or logs.
Food: Please note that these fish have smaller mouths than species Gastromyzon should be a consideration with foodstuffs. Good quality flake, sinking pellets, algae wafers, thawed worms, Mysis Shrimp, blanched spinach, kale, natural algae an advantage.

Water parameters: pH :7.0-8 0.0. Hardness: Medium. Max dh: 12

Temperature: 68 º C to 75 ° F (20 to 23.8 ° C)

Breeding: Not bred in aquaria.
Treatment:

Lowering the pH below 7.0
25 - 50% water change
The use of chemicals to neutralize the ammonia
Suspension or reduction of food

If the ammonia level rises above 1 ppm as measured by a standard test equipment, start treatment immediately. Reducing the pH of the water will provide immediate relief, like a water change of 50% (be sure to use water that is the same temperature as the aquarium). Several changes of water in a short period of time may be necessary to drop the ammonia below 1 ppm.
If the fish are in grave danger, the use of a chemical to neutralize the ammonia is recommended. Feeding should be restricted so that additional waste is reduced. In cases of very high levels of ammonia, feeding should be discontinued for several days. No new fish should be added until the tank until the ammonia and nitrite levels have been reduced to zero.
Because ammonia toxicity is related to the pH, ammonia, and test the pH levels are critical. Ammonia becomes increasingly toxic as the pH rises above 7.0. Because there are so many variables, there is no magic number to watch. However, there are general guidelines to follow.
In terms of level of 1 ppm or 1 mg / l, fish are under stress, but do not appear in serious trouble. Even lower levels can be fatal if the fish are exposed continuously for several days. For this reason it is essential to continue daily testing and treatment until the ammonia drops to zero. When ammonia is elevated for a long period is not unusual to lose fish even after the ammonia levels

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by starsplitter7 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:21 am

You have defintiely lost your cycle and have started it over. You will probably see the ammonia continue to rise, peak, increase nitrites, . . . . hopefully not.

You are over cleaning the tank. I throw away my filter cartridges when they fall apart. Do not pay attention to the manufacturer;s recomendation to throw them away once a month. It is their goal to make money, not to protect your fish. I rinse mine in tank water I remove from the tank once a month. I never clean the filter box unless it has goop hanging off it, and then I dunk it in a bucket of tank water, brush off the goop and put it back on the tank. I do 25-50% water changes every 7-10 days, but only rinse the filters once a month. I have multiple filters on each tank, and only clean one filter at a time.

With your ammonia so high, do 25% water changes every day until your ammonia is zero. Stop vacuuming for a week. Then vacuum only half the tank. You are cleaning away all your bacteria. When your ammonia drops to zero, do 25% changes once a wekk, and vacuum half the tank 2 times a month. If you have a friend who has fish, get them to give you some of the goop out of their filter to put in your filer. That will quicken the cycle. Do chemical tests on your tank every week, and keep a log, so you know what to look for if you run into a problem in the future.

I have 13 tanks right now and I have a log for the last 6 years including all my water changes, filter rinses, new fish, new plants, diseases, treatment, . . .

Add a bubbler or two and drop the level of the water by an inch or two so the water entering the tank splashes the water. The ammonia burns the gills of the fish and makes it very hard for them to break. By adding the extra oxygen, you will take a little stress off your fish.

Do not feed your fish for two days and then do another reading of the ammina. While your fish are sick, eating and producing ammonia is not good for them. Healthy fish can go a month easily without eating. Keep in mind while you are feeding your fish that the fish's stomach is about the size of their eye ball. Do not overfeed. Quickest way to kill all the fish. If your ammonia drops after 2 days, give your fish a super small meal. Then wait and do the same.

Your tank could have been cycled, but when you added the fish, you overwhelmed the few bacteria that were established and then you washed the final bacteria away with all the cleaning. Once you are cycled, then you need to add fish 1 or 2 at a time giving your bacteria time to grow and cope with the new load of ammonia your fish are producing. Since you already have the fish, follow the instructions above.

Pick one product and don't use bunches. I use only Prime, and keep in mind that since Prime does not get rid of Ammonia by detoxifing (so the bacteria can still use it), if you use Prime, your tanks will never read 0 ammonia if you use API (most commonly available) liquid test kits. Mine read about .25-.5. But this is the detoxified ammonia, so it does not harm my fish. I buy a seachem ammonia detector which is calibrated to Prime and it gives an accurate reading. It hangs in the tank and works a year.

Don't get too frsutrated with the responses. People are only trying to help. They are responding to your urgency and writing fast in hopes of being able to help you and save your fish. By the way what country do you live in? That is very helpful in giving product advcice. Good luck!

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:01 pm

Starsplitter7,

Thank you so much for your response. I never gave thought that I was overcleaning my tank and caused the break in the nitrogen cycle as a result. My poor fish. I've been doing daily partial (25%) water changes as per the advisement of RIFF-RAFF without vacuuming the gravel (fear of losing the baby fish), but the ammonia is still present. I'm waiting for the store to receive their shipment of Dr. Tim's biological starter. I hope it kick starts the cycle again.

Anyway, your response has been very informative and it is greatly appreciated.

With much sincerity,
Jes

P.S. I almost forgot to provide an answer to your question. I live in the U.S.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by starsplitter7 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:18 pm

Most of the biological bacteria products do not work. :( If you open it and it smells like rotten eggs, you may have one that works. In the meantime, I am sure you have some bacteria building, so do the water changes daily, and let the bacteria continue growing. The water changes remove the ammonia to try to keep it at liveable amounts.

Your absolute best bet is to find someone with fish and get some goop from their filter. Easiest way to get started, or if you are really lucky they can give you a goopy filter cartridge.

We have all been where you are at. If it wasn't for this website, I never would have found the info I needed to keep my fish alive. I had so many people on this website help me sort out my problems. I used to work at a LFS. Many people who work in fish stores don't know fish or don't keep fish. They are in business to sell. That's all that matters. If you are lucky you will find a good LFS with knowledgeable people. What I do is ask three simple questions that I know the answers to, and see how people answer them. If they get the answers wrong, I don't listen to their advice. If they admit they don't know or get the answers correct, I listen to them. My personal questions are:

What does this bichir eat? (LFS told me flake). Correct answer fish that fit in its mouth.

How big does this pleco (common) get? And what do they eat? (LFS told me "not that big and it will only grow to the size of the tank. And they eat algae off the tank glass). Correct answer: 24" and will be malformed in a small tank. They eat algae wafers, who zucchini, cucumbers, . . . algae in tank and they starve to death.

How big does this clown loach get? What are the best fish for it to live with? (LFS Only grow to the size of the tank, never more than 5". They are great for snail control in a cichlid tank.) Real answer: Grow to 16", live with other clowns and other loaches. Does well with large dithers like giant danios or rainbows.

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by surgeon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:05 am

Im not sure if someone else has answered this but ammo-lock and prime while detoxifying the ammonia will still allow it to show up in tests. Someone pelase correct me if I'm wrong as I'm lucky enough to have not had this issue for a looooooong time.

edit: NVM i see someone has answered this. if your cycle is busted have you thought about grabbing some filter media from another persons tank? (pref disease free of course!)

KittyKat
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by KittyKat » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:25 am

surgeon wrote:Im not sure if someone else has answered this but ammo-lock and prime while detoxifying the ammonia will still allow it to show up in tests. Someone pelase correct me if I'm wrong as I'm lucky enough to have not had this issue for a looooooong time.
Ammo-lock, Stress Coat, Prime and any other product or dechlorinator which claims to "deal" with ammonia will temporarily convert toxic ammonia to less toxic ammonium. I recommend that if one uses only dechlorinator for this, one should at least double dose the dechlorinator at every water changes. Much higher doses of these products would need to be used for higher concentrations of ammonia, but one should be aiming to never let ammonia reach 0.25 ppm anyway.

I have heard rumours that the conversion is only effective for 24 hours.
Kat
stock list | main display tank | 60 litre cycle log (ex- guide for beginners) | Flickr

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by starsplitter7 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:04 pm

With Prime it can drop your oxygen levels. Be careful not to use too much. I have a bumbler running and let the water fall in the tank for a few hours (I have a HOB filter) and then fill the tank.

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:05 am

I was able to purchase SeaChem Prime when I bought the Dr. Tim's One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria. I was afraid to ask for any of their filter goop or gravel. Their tanks seem extremely clean and healthy (It's truly an amazing place.), but I was afraid of introducing a bacterial infection to my tank. Hopefully the Dr. Tim's biological starter will kick start the nitrogen cycle again. Thank you for suggesting the SeaChem, as it works to replace several of the API products I was using due to the quality of my well water. I'll keep my airstone turned on for longer periods of time each day to help keep the water more oxygenated. (I have the power head running all the time for a bottom current.) As for the API ammonia test, I'm now getting a very strange teal color, which isn't like anything on the API chart. Any thoughts on that color?

KittyKat
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by KittyKat » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:24 am

Jes wrote:I was afraid to ask for any of their filter goop or gravel. Their tanks seem extremely clean and healthy (It's truly an amazing place.), but I was afraid of introducing a bacterial infection to my tank.
You would be very unlikely to get an infection through media, but it is still possible. Please don't be afraid to ask for something like filter media, your fish should be more important to you than some random person who you don't even know looking funny at you ;)
Jes wrote:Thank you for suggesting the SeaChem, as it works to replace several of the API products I was using due to the quality of my well water.
Stress Coat and Prime do the same thing about ammonia, I am yet to hear back from Seachem about what exactly Prime does to nitrite and nitrate.
Jes wrote:I'll keep my airstone turned on for longer periods of time each day to help keep the water more oxygenated. (I have the power head running all the time for a bottom current.)
Oxygen gets into the water primarily through surface movement, so the power head/filter outlet should be pointing across the surface as the fish need oxygen even when you switch the airpump off. Ideally, you should have the filter outlet pointing across the surface all the time and have the airpump on all the time at least until your problems are sorted.
Jes wrote:As for the API ammonia test, I'm now getting a very strange teal color, which isn't like anything on the API chart. Any thoughts on that color?
My thoughts are that you need to wash your test tubes out better as the nitrite test settles on the bottom and would probably go teal if mixed with green or yellow. I soak my test tubes for a few hours every few tests to get the remains out and never let them sit for long with the test results in them.
Kat
stock list | main display tank | 60 litre cycle log (ex- guide for beginners) | Flickr

Jes
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with my water, and what am I doing wrong?

Post by Jes » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:48 am

So, I'll sound rude - KittyKat, your responses weren't helpful at all.

1. I wasn't afraid to ask for the filter goop or gravel out of fear of looking funny. I'm not a shallow person. Rather, because of how important my fish actually are to me, I was fearful of introducing a bacterial infection to them. You're not aware of my previous issue posted in the Health and Treatment section of this forum.

2. I'm aware of what the products do to the ammonia. I can read and comprehend what I read very well.

3. I understand how water becomes oxygenated. That's why I don't fill my tank the whole way, so the filter waterfall creates the constant surface movement of water. Also, I have a 3" airstone that creates a lot of surface movement when the bubbles break at the surface. I mentioned the powerhead being used as current (notice the word "current") at the bottom of the tank to prevent having another person tell me that my loaches need a constant current and thinking I wasn't meeting their needs. Clearly, some people do not know how to read carefully on this forum, and quite honestly, it is takes away from the truly helpful responses.

4. Of course I clean the test tubes out immediately after use and thoroughly, I might add. Who wouldn't?

Maybe you didn't mean for your responses to be interpreted the way I did. If I was wrong, then please accept my apology. I didn't set up an aquarium before first becoming as knowledgeable as possible about it prior to obtaining direct experience with it. To assume otherwise about me doesn't make any sense.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests