Black edges appearing on fins

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danielle's tank
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Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 am

Black edges appearing on fins

Post by danielle's tank » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:53 pm

Recently my silver dollars started developing black edging on their fins. As well, they along with some of my other fish are getting a raggedness to their fins (one has had this since almost day one and the tank is 6 months old). On another Site I was told it was probably fin nipping or ammonia levels so I never treated for fin rot. Now however with the black edge developing I have started using melafix. Today is my 3rd day of using it and I noticed that all of a sudden any black that was on my fish is way more pronounced than before. Can anyone tell me why this is? Also is melafix safe for my 3 blue botias?

danielle's tank
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by danielle's tank » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:15 am

How do I attach pictures? I dont see an attachment option.

starsplitter7
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Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by starsplitter7 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:33 am


danielle's tank
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by danielle's tank » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:14 am

Thanks but that is a little too complex for me too as I don't use photobucket or anything.
I think I'm going to stop using the melafix medicine anyways since no one has responded to that question and it seems like my fish are doing worse today. Really black on fins of dollars and body of angels. My angels and dollars aren't eating and are hanging out near the bottom of the tank leaning to the side my loaches were breathing heavy this morning. I did a little water change this evening so hopefully I won't loose any in the night :(

My new new 10 gallon is finally cycled but will it be too hard on the 4 angels to move them now? if anybody knows please answer I really don't want to loose any more fish. I am really struggling to keep my fish alive in an overcrowded tank. I've only had them 6 months and ive lost 6 already I am really getting discouraged :(

Diana
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Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by Diana » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:33 am

If the Angels are really small, then the 10 gallon is OK, but do not put adult angels in a 10 gallon tank.

I would be doing more water changes. Whatever is in the water seems to be causing problems, so get rid of whatever it is by diluting it with fresh water. Perhaps as much as 50% daily, if the tap water and the tank have the same GH, KH and TDS. Smaller water changes if tap and tank are not pretty close to the same for these parameters.

Ammonia is a common cause of the edges of the fins turning black. Ammonia burns the tender tissue in the gills and between the rays of the fins. This can lead to an infection of any of several organisms that cause fin rot, or the ammonia itself may be burning the fins. Fin rot usually looks like the fins are thinner, and more clear, and the ends are getting ragged, and disappearing. There can be white puffy growths at the ends. This is usually a fungus living on the damaged tissues.

Some fish do fine with Melafix, others do not. Absolutely do not use it for any Anabantoid (Gouramis, Bettas, Paradise fish). Some Loaches do not seem to handle it well, either. I have used it without a problem for Angels, and many other fish.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

danielle's tank
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by danielle's tank » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:00 am

Thanks I will try a 50% water change tonight. I was doing very regular water changes when I first got the tank bc I never knew you had to cycle them and the lfs never said anything even though I told her it was a new 20gal.
I think they are adult but my tank is way too overcrowded (15 still alive) and I don't want to loose any more fish. I don't have room for anything bigger but in a year when renovations are done then I can buy a 70gal or bigger for my fish if they live. I have 2 10gal that I bought (2nd hand) to try to give the fish more water per gallon each. Maybe I should just get rid of my monster 12inch pleco as he is my real problem knocking everyone else around and being very messy and keep everyone else in the 20?

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Black edges appearing on fins

Post by Diana » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:08 pm

You have WAY WAY WAY too much fish-mass in that tank.
Yes, get rid of the Pleco.

Think of it this way: What if you got a whole litter of Saint Bernard puppies, and you lived in a small apartment. It might be fun for a week or two, but it is a lot of work keeping clean, and the puppies keep growing, and growing... And producing more and more waste... That apartment would get toxic awfully fast!

In a 20 gallon, even very heavily planted, I would not keep more than a dozen or so small fish like Platies.

There are several reasons for this:
1) Fish need many things to survive that are carried in the water. There is only a limited amount of water, and it can only carry so much of each of these things. Oxygen. CO2 removal. Ammonia removal. Stress hormone removal. Growth factor removal.

2) Social issues. Even schooling fish do not want to be crowded together that closely, occasionally a fish leaves the school to explore on its own. Solitary fish do not like other fish (the same or different species) staying too close.

3) Exercise level. Too large a fish in too small a tank cannot swim back and forth properly to get enough exercise. Even a relatively sedentary fish like Plecos need more room than that.

4) Solid waste handling. The water movement carries the solid waste to the filter which traps it. Then you clean the filter and remove the solid waste from the system. When there are too many fish the filter gets full too fast, and you need to keep on cleaning it a LOT. If it is not getting full too fast, the filter may be too small for the tank, not creating enough water movement and this high stocking load is producing a LOT of waste. It must be sitting in the tank and rotting.

There is an old guide to how many fish you can put in a tank. It is valid only for fish 2" and smaller. Stock no more than 1" of fish per gallon of water. This guide addresses only the item 1) issues, the carrying capacity of the water.
When fish are larger than 2" this guide goes out the window. Here is why:
A fish produces waste and needs oxygen based on its mass. The mass can be approximated by length x width x height.
When you compare similar shaped fish, but just talk about length you are only comparing one measurement.
In actual fact Fish A, that is twice as long as fish B is also twice as tall and twice as wide.
Fish A has 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 times the mass of fish B, and has 8 times the need for oxygen supply and waste removal.
Remember those St. Bernard puppies? A dog that is twice as tall as another dog does not produce just twice as much waste, the larger dog produces a lot more than that!

Comparing fish of about 1-2" for stocking purposes works out OK. But if you start thinking about a fish that is 3" compared to the 2" fish it is producing so much more waste and demanding so much more oxygen you quickly outstrip the carrying capacity of the tank.
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Here is what I would do:
~25% water changes every day, emphasizing vacuuming the floor of the tank every time. You probably cannot vacuum all the tank in one go, but keep at it. perhaps 1/4 of the tank each day until you have gone over it all, then clean the filter, then back to vacuuming the tank...
~Feed sparingly, and feed as much plant based food as the fish are willing to eat. Salad and lightly cooked vegetables from the kitchen are good. If you have carnivorous fish (the Botias need more protein, not pure vegetable diet, and Angelfish will not eat vegetables) they need to be fed protein, but protein adds to the waste problem. Feed as little as you can just enough to keep them from eyeing their tank mates as dinner.
~Add plants and make sure the tanks have good light. Plants are excellent at removing fish waste such as CO2 and ammonia. The fish may eat the plants. That is OK, skip feeding them, and keep adding more plants.
~If the 10 gallon is really cycled (see the fishless cycle at the top of the Health forum) then move some fish over to it, but I have no idea which. None of them really belong in that size of tank.
~Set up all the other tanks (do you have one more 10 gallon?) you have and separate the fish so that the largest fish has the largest tank, and schooling fish are kept together.
I would do it this way:

Day 1) and 2) Do water changes (25%) both days with as thorough a gravel vacuuming as you can.
Set up the other 10 gallon tank and run it for 24-48 hours to be sure everything works (heater, filter).

Day 3) Split up the media in the filter of the 20 gallon tank so each of the 10 gallons gets half the media from the 20 gallon. (If the first 10 gallon really is fully cycled then just put the media into the uncycled 10 from the 20) Put all new media in the 20 gallon's filter. Skim some of the top layer of gravel from the 20 gallon and share it with both of the 10 gallon tanks. There is a lot of bacteria in this top layer. (If that first 10 is really cycled then it should not need too much, if any of this bacteria-rich gravel) Keep any decorations and the lower layers of gravel in the 20 gallon. Do not scrape the walls of this tank, and do not scrub the inside of the filter. There are a lot of bacteria on all the surfaces.
Add Nitrospira to all these tanks. This is the nitrifying bacteria that is having such a hard time handling the waste load. You need more of these bacteria. Read the label and do not let the store people tell you 'This other product is just as good.'. The other products do not have the right species of bacteria.
Share the water among the tanks so the fish are in some of the water they are acclimated to, then top off all tanks with new water with dechlor. This will result in something like a 50% water change for them, which is quite a lot.
Split up the fish, roughly 1/3 in each tank. Hopefully the bacteria and the fish have been split equally, and the Nitrospira will help boost the population quickly. Unfortunately I do not know what to suggest about how to split up the fish. All the fish you have belong in tanks larger than the 20, and now we are trying to make 10 gallons work for them. Angelfish fins will not grow well in too- short a tank. Botias and Dollars are highly active fish. Botias are usually plump fish with a higher bioload than some other fish of the same length.

Day 4) Do not disturb the tanks. The Nitrospira is still getting attached.
Day 5 and several days more). Do daily 25% water changes but skip the gravel vacuuming until the ammonia and nitrite tests both report zero. Waste will build up fast in the gravel, but the Nitrospira need some time to get attached. The Nitrospira will take a few days to really get going on the ammonia, so stay on top of things!
After the ammonia and nitrite are under control:
Resume gravel vacuuming. Resume regular feeding, but see if you can get by with less that you fed before. Many people overfeed their fish. Continue to include salad and vegetables for the fish that like plant based foods.
Monitor the tanks to see how fast the nitrate rises. Do enough water changes (size and frequency) to keep the nitrate under 20 ppm. (I suspect with these large fish this will still mean 2 or even 3 water changes per week) With every water change vacuum the gravel the best you can. In a 10 gallon this will probably mean doing about 1/2 or 1/3 of the tank each time. Clean the filters often, sloshing the media around in used tank water to loosen the debris without dislodging the bacteria. After a while the bacteria get really well secured so you can be a bit more aggressive in cleaning the filter media.

Look for that larger tank as fast as you can. Try Craig's List, thrift shops and garage sales. Anything larger would be better than what they are in now, but the work to move them up just a little (say to a 30 or 40 gallon) may not be worth it. Especially do not settle for a tank that is only a bit larger if that would delay the purchase of the bigger, better tank. Hold out for at least a 4' long tank, and as large a volume as you can afford.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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