Sick piranha and thread like worms

[elfuego]

Hi,
I have a question about our Red Bellied Piranha. He has a gray film all over his head, a sore on his chin and there appears to be thread like worms all over in the water.
He has had this gray film and sore for quite awhile. About 2 months ago I treated the tank with "fungus cure" and Tetracycline. At the time, he was not eating, had pop-eye and the sore on his chin was bright red. He improved considerably after the treatment. However, I then had water quality issues for awhile until I straightened out the bio-filter.
He does not get fed "live" food. We feed him freeze dried silversides, salmon,freeze dried Krill(he does not care for these) and occasionally beefheart treats. There is no substrate in his tank only a clump of java moss and a decoration thing for him to hide behind when he feels the need. He is alone in a 55gal tank. I know he is a schooling fish but by the time we got him he was of considerable size and had eaten all tank mates in the past. It is difficult to get a tank mate that is not too young and too small. Anyway, he still has the gray film on his head, little worms all over in his tank and the sore on his chin is mostly lumpy and white in color. He does seem otherwise to be acting normal and eating.
Need help please!!!
Will try to send a picture later.

[Diana]

Could the lumpy white area be Lymphocystis? Google lots of pictures.
Was this the site of an injury? Could fungus have moved in on the damaged tissue?
Have you tried any parasite medicines in the water? They may kill the worms that cling to the side of the tank.

Grey overall coloring does not sound good. Are the other water parameters (GH, KH, pH) right for this fish?
Look into external parasites.
Ich is so large as to be obvious, but Velvet or Costia are skin problems that are not so visible.

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/

This is a site that has a lot of info about what various symptoms mean.
Hover over the Fish Disease Diagnosis, click on Tropical Fish and then scroll down a little and click on Skin Disorders. About 1/2 way through the list, and then farther down are 2 possible problems that can make a fish look sort of greyish.

An ultra violet sterilizer may help this situation. It will kill many single celled and simple microorganisms that are drifting in the water. If the fish is infected with something that can re-infect and increase its population by living in the water for a short time, this will help.
It MAY help against the worms, but I do not know. If the worms are small enough, and drift or swim in the water they may pass through the UV and be killed.

[elfuego]

Thanks Diana,
I did miss state the fact that the silversides and krill were "freeze-dried", they are only frozen and we suspect that's where the worms came from. Also, being a member of the tetra family will he be extra sensitive to parasite meds?
Also, the gray is only on his head.

[Diana]

Generally Tetras are sensitive to external chemicals. (Such as meds in the water) when they have smaller than average scales. For example, a Neon Tetra has such small scales you just about cannot tell they have scales. Similarly many catfish and Loaches with small, reduced or absent scales are more sensitive to certain things.

If you can see the scales of the piranha then the fish is less likely to be so sensitive.

Areas of the fish being grey, but not the whole fish may suggest something like Flavobacteria columnaris. (This is called Columnaris at the site I linked above)

However: You may get more accurate info, possible diagnosis and treatment suggestions at a site that specializes in predators. They may actually have a Piranha forum or something. Just don't ask them about Loaches! Come back here for that

[Matt]

Hi Elfuego, blazin' user name! To me it sounds like your piranha is suffering some long-term effects of ammonia poisoning, commonly referred to as "ammonia burn" by piranha keepers. Piranha are notorious for this and the lump on the chin and loss of body mucus are classic signs of it especially in bigger fish. It can come on very fast; I had a big Serrasalmus maculatus that developed the lump plus cloudy eyes after only 5 or 6 hours in a fish box and have seen the same problem in loads of newly-imported specimens.

The worms are unconnected to the physical condition of the fish but possibly to the cause in my opinion. They sound like planarians which are harmless to fish but tend to breed like crazy when there is a lot of organic waste in the water.

I would try 50% water changes daily for a week and do not feed the fish during this time. Also have you cleaned your filter recently? You say you recently had water quality issues. What happened? Finally how much do you feed your piranha and how often? Sorry for all the questions but piranha can be delicate fish and I'm a bit of a fan of them.

[elfuego]

Thanks Matt,
I think you are right on! The water quality issue I had was elevated ammonia. Will change water and filters directly!!!
I'm not sure exactly how much he gets fed. We feed him every other day and it's usually a smaller sized chunk of frozen silversides, or salmon or beefheart. Do not feed live food.
O.K. so I change the water at 50% frequently, change the filter and don't feed him for a week. Then what? Does he need any meds to help heal his chin? Should his tank have a different set up? I actually feel relieved that I know what this is now!!! The ammonia issue must be why the java moss is not doing very well either.
I have gone to piranha sites on the web; they are kind of scary. Lots of people that like to see them eat other fish instead of appreciating them for their beauty. My research has found that they do much better on non-live food in a tank set up. Matt, you could be his saving grace! Not a lot of knowledge floating around about them usually. Thanks again!
P.S. Elfuego, was the name of my Spanish/Polish Arabian gelding. His stud was straight out of the Spanish Arabian stud book. Best horse ever!

[Diana]

I am glad you found out what is wrong with the fish

Are you still having water quality problems? Ammonia or nitrite showing anything other than 0 ppm? Nitrates climbing?

There is a lot of nitrifying bacteria on all the filter media. Better to rinse and reuse the media, conserving the beneficial bacteria. Rinse it in water removed from the tank for a water change.

If there is still some question if the bacteria have made a full recovery you could add some nitrifying bacteria. Be careful, though, most of the 'bacteria in a bottle' products do not have the proper bacteria. You are looking for Nitrospiros It can be found in Tetra Safe Start or Dr Tim's One and Only.

[FiletAndRelease]

Hi all,
After the third day of 50% water changes, all water chemistry readings were normal. We did not check the water quality prior to the water changes though, so that may not have been the problem. Anyway, here is a picture of the growth on his chin. Thoughts?

[Matt]

Sorry for the late reply fuego. It's a classic "chimple" alright but its obviously infected. If you can get it the best product I found for use with piranha is Melafix. A dose of that plus keep up the water changes and he should be ok. With regards to feeding, how big is the fish? Do you feed the food frozen or defrost first? I'd also cut out the beefheart and perhaps replace it with frozen shrimp and the occasional earthworm. Finally do you have a bigger pic of the fish please?