loaches with ich

[glenna]

I am new to the hobby ...about 3 months, and have a 29 gallon tank
I fell in love with clown loaches after the local fishstore sold me one as an algae eater (....oh, it won't get very big and will hide most of the time)
I know, I should have RESEARCHED the fish, but I am learning.... anyway, I have read and read and am enamoured with these clowns!
I have set up a 75 gallon tank and am waiting on it to mature. I looked online and saw some things to do to make it a hospitable environ, we'll seee how that works, but that is not the current problem.
I am cycling my 75 gallon, but...(sadness) my loach (s) - (yes, I got it a partner after I read they should not be kept alone - this is where the trouble started) has the dreaded ich!!!!
I read the forum postings on how to treat and have been doing 50% water changes every 3rd day, cranked up the temp, and using rid-ich, but at a reduced dose. Initially I followed the forum instructions perfectly with 50%, but the loaches did not seem to respond, so now I have ramped it up to 2/3's the recommended dose. I am afraid to take the temp up to 86 since my other fishes seem despondent. I have 10 rasporas and one dwarf gourami in the tank with the loaches and they are not at all affected (by the ich, but I am afraid for them, with the medication). They seem well, except for the gourami who hangs at the bottom and is very pale.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!
the petstore person suggested sacrficing the loaches, stating that if I put them in a plastic bag and then into the freezer they would just "go to sleep" ...the most humane thing (yikes!!)
They DO DEFINITELY have ich from every photo I have seen. They scratch themselves on the rocks in the tank, but otherwise are eating, dancing and chasing each other around.

I really would appreciate any advice. I do NOT plan on "bagging" the loaches.

gen info about my tank:
penguin biowheel powerfilter
temp: 84F
25% H2O changes weekly, but now 50 % every 3rd day
water parameters have been good, I think
pH 7.6 + (that is the pH of the local water and I am hesitant to try and change it)
other parameters (nitrate <25 ppm, and neg for nitrite, ammonia is trace)
substrate is sand with pebble gravel on top, fluorite for the plants (which are all croaking since I have been doing these treatments this past week)
I have a driftwood and some plastic ornaments

thanks!!

[plaalye]

My first piece of advice is to stop going to that shop!
I don't have clowns but have used Rid-ich successfully with other loaches. I suggest following the directions on the bottle. Don't raise the temp, dose every day with a 25% water change before each dose, be sure to remove carbon from your filter. There seem to be some nasty strains of ich lately and it can take a week, even two or more to get rid of. It usually gets worse before getting better. Be patient and don't stop the treatment until all visible signs have been gone for at least three days. I think it helps to maximize the oxygen content in the water by adding turbulence, ie dropping the level so the filter outlet causes more splash-air stone-small powerhead etc. I also keep the lights out more and try to keep the tank calm. Hope this helps. There are some other active threads on the subject that you may read. Good luck!

[glenna]

Thanks,
I have already decided NOT to go back to that fishstore, but in the meantime....
I am surprised that it can take WEEKS to treat ich *what a greenie). I am TOTALLY willing to do what it takes to get my two loaches well again.
I am going to continue the rid-ich, will back off on the water changes to 25% with each treatment and hope for the best. I will remove the tunnel-log and scrub it well before putting it back in ,The loaches LOVE this hiding place, but I do not think there is enough circulation in there.
Tonight I set up a hospital tank: 10 gallons with some gravel and a hiding place, a couple of fake plants. ( I know, I should have done this in the first place, but you know what they say about hindsite)
If the loaches are not at least somewhat better in a week to 10 days, I am thinking about transferring them to this tank so I do not subject my raspora to day after day rid-ich. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but I have a couple of weeks (and a few water changes!!) to think about it.
Any thoughts?
will this be too much stress for the loaches?
I appreciate the help

[plaalye]

I would disturb them as little as possible. The ich is in the tank already so all the fish have been exposed and should be treated the same. Transferring them would be stressful.
Keep in mind that these are just my opinions from my experience. There are many more experienced folks here that will hopefully give theirs.

[Diana]

Separating fish that have Ich is fine, and can be very useful if the different species ought to be treated differently to cure them of Ich.

Clown Loaches seem better able to handle the warmer temperatures than Rasboras, so this might be a reason to separate the fish. You must, however keep up the medication in both tanks. The original tank has Ich in all its stages, and when you move some of the fish you are leaving a lot of Ich behind.

The Gourami hovering around the bottom is a bad sign. These guys generally prefer the top of the tank, though they are entirely willing to follow some food to the floor of the tank.

I would do a daily water change, emphasizing gravel vacuuming to remove Ich that has fallen to the floor of the tank. It is not so much the volume of water, but how well you can vacuum the substrate.
25% daily water change, then dose the Rid Ich as you are filling the tank.

If the fish are not doing so well with the higher temperature then lower the temperature by about 1*F per day until they seem a bit better. Warm water holds less oxygen, and increasing the surface movement of the water is a very good way to keep the oxygen levels higher.

[glenna]

good, now at least I have some new things to try based on your experience with these beautiful fish.
wish me luck, and I'll keep you posted

[Icewall42]

Agreed with most everything mentioned above. I've dealt with ich a couple times now on my loaches, and I've never lost one to it. It can be fatal if left untreated, but it's not so quickly lethal as so many other things I've seen and had to weather.

When my tanks had ich, I generally kept the temperature at 84-86F but NO HIGHER than that. Fish aren't usually comfortable at that temperature, but 84 is generally a good exchange for a bit of discomfort because heat stops ich in its tracks. Combined with medication and small water changes, the ich usually goes away with no harm done. Ich usually pops out after the fish have been chilled, though stress will cause it as well (at least in my experience working in our fish store and receiving so many cold shipments).

You can never have too much aeration for clown loaches. The more, the better. Live plants help also with the exchange. The estimate of about 1-2 weeks for it to improve and go away sounds about right.

[glenna]

Well, I have taken all the ornaments out, as well as the live plants. I also have QUITE a lot of aeration in the form of a large bubble device and an extra large power filter which provides surface agitation.
I did make the mistake of turning down the temp to 80 (the raspora were looking tired). The smaller loach is now WORSE. Still eating and active, but clearly full of ich. So, I am turing the temp BACK UP again, and the other fish will just have to deal. They were not looking nearly as bad as the loaches.
At this point my regimen is as follows:
25% water change per day with gravel vacuum
rid-ich at 2/3's the recommended dose
no charcoal in the filter and rinse the filter cartridge with the water change
hey thanks!

[Icewall42]

Yes, based on my experience, I'd slowly raise the temperature back up to 84F and just be sure to monitor all of the fish closely for signs of moderate to severe distress. I would only bring it up to 86F as a last resort because 86F is the very limit of what many fish will tolerate, at least in my experience. I've had a community tank that included plecos, tetras, rasboras, and loaches at that temperature without any problems, but they really don't like it.

Ich almost always dies in the face of it unless it's especially tenacious or resistant.

[plaalye]

I left my tanks at normal temp as per directions, 78-80, and it worked well. I'd consider full strength also. I t didn't harm my botias/khulis/schisturas. Clowns could be different I suppose?

[Diana]

Raising the temperature is not required to kill Ich. Keep the tank well aerated. Ich can get into the gills, and combined with the lower oxygen that happens in warmer tank can be very hard on the fish.

Ich can be killed at temperatures over 86*F. This means every bit of the tank, even under the substrate, is raised above that temperature. This is hard to do, and usually means raising the water temp to something closer to 90*. This is VERY stressful to the fish, especially cooler to moderate temperature fish. Don't do it.

84* is not high enough to kill Ich. It will increase the life cycle so that Ich falls off the fish faster, and enters the susceptible phase faster, so raising the temperature can help. It is optional, though. Ich can be killed even at pond temperatures (it just takes longer).

Keep the fish happy, with the temperature as high as comfortable, but do not force it higher, to the point they are stressing.

If 80* is as high as they seem to handle OK, then leave it at that.
Consistency is the key to treatment. Since Ich is only vulnerable to medicines for a day or so out of a week long life cycle (this varies with the tye of Ich and temperature) you need to keep the meds in the water, at active levels long enough for Ich to go through its life cycle.

[Icewall42]

That I'm not certain of, most of my experience has been with clowns. I imagine fish, though, are somewhat like people--some will respond to a treatment, and others won't. Mine just happened to respond to the slight increase in heat, and some of the literature I've read or have heard about has said that ich doesn't manage well in warmer water, hence why most of the chilled/stressed fish were getting it.

If the loach was looking better with the extra warmth, it is still my recommendation, though I'm guessing other fish get over ich with only medical treatment. Keep a lookout for improvement, modify as necessary.

Edit: I stand corrected about killing ich--but heat can help get rid of it.

[glenna]

alright,
this is where I have settled: the temp is 82 and the raspora and gourami are dealing with that. In fact, the gourami is looking a bit better. He/she is swimming at the top and actually ate with some vigor Today at 82F.
The larger loach DEFINITILY looks better but the smaller still has a LOT if ich. This one is flashing a lot and scratching on the rocks, of which there are only a few. I think they really respond to having a place to hide, so I a have left the fakey looking plastic "log " in there, but make sure to dump the rid -ich medicine through it when I treat (As long as no one is actively hiding in it).
I feel this is a reasonable compromise: we will see how the fish do....maybe ich will "raise on my match". I am thinking positive, and planning for success. I think if I just STICK with it, I can get them better. ( sometimes when I am sitting in the dark in front of the tank, that little one swims to the glass... I swear it is looking right at me, but I may be imagining it)

What is anyone's experience on the decorations? Can ich persist on driftwood? I boiled my nice piece of driftwood for 30 minutes tonight, but will not place it back in the aquarium until I have a couple of weeks of clear tank.(IF I get it cleared). I think it will get in the way of vacuuming the gravel.
I think patience and persistence will be key here.

[Icewall42]

I'm not really certain on the driftwood--someone might have better information on that than I do, but I suspect that if its in a treated tank, it won't hold on to the disease after treatment has finished. I haven't had recurrences of ich in the past, at least not ones that closely followed each other (the last two bouts were many, many years apart).

I'm also hoping for the best. I've heard that the ich can sometimes get worse before it gets better but that's also something I'm not 100% sure on. If things are starting to look up, it usually is getting better, at least as far as I've noticed with ich. I don't think it's a very sudden killer, especially if it's being treated.

And it's a good bet that the little guy sees you! I know mine see me all the way in another room, especially when they want food. And when I had my desk next to the tank, the yoyos I had at the time would always come from across the length of the 55g to sit and look at me. So adorable when they turn their little heads, and when they take such an interest in you.

hoping for the best! Just keep at it--sometimes it just takes persistence.

[glenna]

Things are FINALLY looking ( a little) up!

Both are BETTER, but the little guy is still pretty ich-ful. Regardless, he/she is eating well, very active, and inseparable from the larger loach. The two, scavenge the pebbles relentlessly, and will come to the surface for micropellets!
I have been giving a spare amount of bloodworm or brine shrimp, but have REALLY limited the treats, since I have no carbon i n the filter at this point and the biological filter is down some( i guess) with all the medication. The nitrites and ammonia are nil, but the nitrates are 20 PPM which I do not like. I do not think I can help it at this point and did a 50% change with treatment Today (I have done 25% daily changes with meds all this week). Everyone except the gourami is looking okay. Temp is 82F and the gourami is very pale, but at least feeding, albeit poorly) at the top of the tank now.
The two loaches seem pretty bonded at this point, and go everywhere in the tank together.
The other day, the little one was taking a rest on the bottom, just laying there, but the bigger one wanted some interaction, and kept head butting until they raced all around the tank!