Yet another skinny loach topic

[Annah]

In my tank I have Glowlight tetras, Black Neon tetras and a Bristlenose in with my Dwarf Chain loaches, Yoyo loaches and Zebra loaches. The Zebra loaches are the only ones that have suffered from this skinny disease. I had to euthanise one zebra after trying to treat with Praziquantel. He seemed to fatten up a bit after treatment (that could have been due to the fact I was feeding him up on bloodworm also) but then suddenly one morning I found he was not so good, couldn't swim properly, lying on his side etc and so I promptly euthanised him. Several months after this I euthanised a second fish that had become skinny.

Does anyone have any idea why this disease doesn't appear to affect any of the other fish?

I currently have 2 Zebras that I suspect are suffering from this condition and am treating with levamisole in the form of Avitrol Plus syrup (bird wormer), which also contains Praziquantel. Although my research has lead me to believe that this isn't the best form to be using but it was the only form of levamisole available at the LFS. I've also read several different ways to treat with Avitrol plus. Some say 1ml per litre of water, thus meaning I need six 25 ml bottles to treat my tank, which at $20 a bottle is kind of expensive! Another said 2 drops per litre, which I did a couple of nights ago.

I'm not convinced that it is a worm problem as I've never seen any evidence of worms, are they possibly too small to see??

It seems that the general recommedation from this forum consists of alternating between antibiotics AND de-wormers. I've got some E-mycin but read that its not the right kind? These kinds of medications are extremely hard to get a hold of in NZ. I only have E-mycin because my it was prescribed to my husband last year and he didn't take the whole course!

Would the likes of Furan-2 being an antibiotic work?

[clint]

What are you feeding them?

[Annah]

They get Wardley Shrimp pellets, TetraMin Tropical Flake food, or JBL Nova Pleco chips. Occasionally frozen bloodworm. I've tried fresh foods such as peas and zucchini but they don't seem to be very happy about it.

[clint]

Mine eat cucumber along with the rest of the food i serve.

[Ardillakilla]

It's most like not worms or other parasites but the ubiquitous mycobacteria. People often think that it must be (to the detriment of their fish) because lay people can't wrap their heads around the idea that one can waste away for reasons other than starvation (due to parasites or not being fed enough).

Erythromycin can work but you really need an aminoglycoside antibiotic in a fairly high dose. It's recommended that you then couple it with another unrelated antibiotic (I use TMP-sulfa). You may have to find a vet to get those antibiotics.

[Annah]

So I'm going to attempt to treat for mycobacteria with all I can have, which is Erythromycin aka Maracyn. I'm aware that kanamycin is best for this but this is not available in NZ from fish shops and only on available from doctors or pharmacists, who are generally not too happy about prescribing medications for fish! Can't order online either as it will most likely be intercepted at NZ Customs. So really Erythromycin is my only option. Trouble is, it is in 400mg tablet form.

How would I go about using what I have? Crush the tablet and disolve in water I'm guessing but how many, for how long?

Its really frustrating not being able to help my loaches with the proper medications. I've euthanised three zebra loaches so far, another two are showing signs and possibly a Yoyo loach is starting to show signs.

If I can't sort this issue out, that it for me and loaches. No more.

[Diana]

There are many species of internal parasites. Some are large enough to see, but many stay inside the fish and only reproduce by shedding eggs which are too small to see.

I would continue the alteration of wormer and antibiotics. If EM is the only thing you can get, then use that.

Dosing from this label:

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/p ... atid=16818

200 mg active ingredient per 10 gallons. That is from an American site, and I assume the gallons are American.
So... 200 mg active ingredient per 8 Imperial gallons.
Also: 200 mg per 38 liters.

Yes, I would break it up and try to dissolve it in water before adding it to the tank. Then add it where the filter flow will distribute it around the tank the best.

[Annah]

Thanks Diana. I've got Prazi as a wormer too, have tried getting levamisole but thats proved difficult.

I'll be trying this in a small 34 litre tank, as I understand erythromycin may kill off the good bacteria.

[Ardillakilla]

I feel that keeping loaches isn't something one should do without UV and kanamycin/TMP sulfa on hand. If I lived in countries where those antibiotics weren't readily available, I wouldn't keep loaches. Ich and cachexia are very common killers of loaches.

You might want to try to track down the vets who treat the fish at public aquariums. The vet who looks after the fish in the city's aquarium has treated some of my fish. Many public aquarium and zoo fish are too expensive to neglect so they are getting veterinary care from someone.

[Annah]

I feel that keeping loaches isn't something one should do without UV and kanamycin/TMP sulfa on hand. If I lived in countries where those antibiotics weren't readily available, I wouldn't keep loaches. Ich and cachexia are very common killers of loaches.

You might want to try to track down the vets who treat the fish at public aquariums. The vet who looks after the fish in the city's aquarium has treated some of my fish. Many public aquarium and zoo fish are too expensive to neglect so they are getting veterinary care from someone.

Well its a bit late for that isn't it.

We're a small country, my town certainly doesn't have a local aquarium. The only one that would probably deal with vets is in Auckland.. miles away from me. I will be visiting this aquarium, but not until August...

I've noticed now that one of my smaller Yoyo loaches appears be getting skinny now. He also appears to have quite a red discolouration on his underside, it looks internal. Another symptom perhaps? He's active, behaving and eating normally so far.

I talked to someone at the LFS who seems to know a lot about fish keeping. They seemed to think that it was highly unlikely that it would be mycobacteria. They suggested I get a UV steriliser, since I mentioned that I currently have issues with black beard algae and a little bit of cyanobacteria. They thought it was most likely that my water conditions weren't ideal at present and causing the illness.

[Ardillakilla]

We're a small country, my town certainly doesn't have a local aquarium. The only one that would probably deal with vets is in Auckland.. miles away from me. I will be visiting this aquarium, but not until August...

Do a search here:

http://www.aquavetmed.info/

Obviously, not all vets have registered themselves but if you can find someone in your country, call them and they'll know if there's someone closer to you.

I've noticed now that one of my smaller Yoyo loaches appears be getting skinny now. He also appears to have quite a red discolouration on his underside, it looks internal. Another symptom perhaps? He's active, behaving and eating normally so far.

That sounds like a symptom of a bacterial infection. Are you treating with erythromycin now?

I talked to someone at the LFS who seems to know a lot about fish keeping. They seemed to think that it was highly unlikely that it would be mycobacteria. They suggested I get a UV steriliser, since I mentioned that I currently have issues with black beard algae and a little bit of cyanobacteria. They thought it was most likely that my water conditions weren't ideal at present and causing the illness.

Poor water quality predisposes fish to bacterial infections. Once a serious infection is underway, a return to good water quality won't cure the infection. Mild infections sometimes resolve on their own as the immune system, bolstered by improved living conditions, deals with it.

Mycobacteria are ubiquitous in aquariums, fish farms, etc., and their wasting effect is well known. Fish will lose body mass (even while still feeding) at a higher rate than if they weren't eating at all. That tells you that there's an active wasting process going on, not just simple starvation due to parasites or not getting enough food. Parasites only divert a fraction of the food intake of the host which makes it even less plausible that they could emaciate a fish faster than 100% starvation.


http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... a=N&tab=ws

First article mentions caved in ventral surfaces and cachexia. The 2nd and 4th list cachexia among the symptoms of mycobacterial infection in fish.


I should add that while UV might help prevent infection, it's not going to cure an infection caused by an organism whose life cycle doesn't require leaving the host. Something like ich, which has an obligatory free swimming/floating phase, can be dealt with by UV.

[Annah]

What puzzles me though is why none of the other species of fish I am keeping are being affected. Is it perhaps that loaches are more susceptible for some reason?


No I'm not treating with erythromycin yet. Was waiting for the weekend so I'd have time to catch the fish and put in hospital tank. Probably be doing that some time today.

So what you're saying about the UV is that if the fish already has the infection it won't cure it? If thats the case then yes I am aware of that.

thanks for your help, and for the links too