HI new member with levamisole HCL vs clown loaches question

[malia]

the PH is actually fairly high at 7.6.. it always has been, due to the sandy substrate (first mistake when setting up aquarium) And i haven't tested for water hardness before... i usually take it in to the lfs for those tests.. is there a kit i can buy for that?

[jwyfk]

jwyfk- you are having that creepy TDS issue also. Do you think it could of been the TDS issue in combination with the levamisole that upset your clown loaches? Or perhaps the HCL reacted to something in the water column? I guess this is why such treatments should always be done in a quarantine tank 1st, that way if there is an adverse reaction, then only one or a few fish are affected instead of the entire main tank.

I know you were saying that your TDS has ranged from around 200 to 850 ppm. How have you been dealing with this? Did you switch to RO water? Have you been doing smaller more frequent water changes?

You are absolutely right that you shouldn't trust anybody with your own fish. When I used Levamisole HCL I 1st tested it in a few small quarantine tanks, then after it passed my safety tests I dosed my main tanks with it.

Shari- maybe this is something you need to add to your article. That the levamisole should be tested in a quarantine tank 1st.

Also, fish definitely need to have steady water parameters during medicinal treatments. Kh, Gh, TDS, and pH levels need to be steady before, during, and after treatments. All the water changes that are required can make this a difficult task, especially in jwyfk's case.

The thought had definitely crossed my mind with regards to the elevated TDS combined with the high dosage of Levamisole causing a strange reaction. I did read somewhere that using this medication with a high PH is bad, but I think that is no longer the case.

There were 2 issues that I noticed with my fish before treatment: The strange white pit marks in my loaches, and the blister/ulcer on my Kubotai. One clown with an internal lump looked a little skinny, and a Yoyo was bloated and very skinny. Both of these fish were treated and cured previously in a quarantine tank using Jungle medicated fish food, which contains Levamisole. Because of this, and after reading about this medication, I decided to treat the entire tank as a preventative measure.

I just looked up my old post from October 30, and when I first got my TDS meter, the readings were tap-562 ppm, tank-601 ppm. The 852 ppm reading was given to me by the water company. The DEP and EPA is involved with the gas mine fracturing and brine water disposal problems, but I think the huge drop is due more to rain and snow dilution than any regulations imposed. Today, the tap water is 161 ppm, and 172 ppm in the tank. Oddly, though, the last time I checked my PH, it was still beyond the maximum of the freshwater test kit of 7.4, despite the TDS being below 200 ppm. Another odd thing that I have noticed since the TDS dropped so drastically is that when I do a water change, there is an abnormal amount of tiny bubbles present.

I didn't have much luck at Home Depot or Lowes with RO units, and the choices on Ebay are pretty overwhelming. Right now the TDS levels have been consistent, so I'm hoping the water situation has solved itself, unless we have drought conditions this Summer. I'll be moving in the Spring, and maybe have a better basement with a sink.

I know you advised against it, but I treated the main tank with 2 rounds of PraziPro. A 4 oz bottle was only $13. I'm done. Purigen will be going back in, and I'm going to supplement it with Chemi-Pure. My fish have had enough drugs!

malia, I apologize for the overwhelming thread jack, lol. Shari's treatment is 3 rounds at a lower dosage. If your fish seem OK now, maybe it's better to stick with the 2 dose 2 round schedule? I had to estimate based on the amount of decorations and gravel in my tank, plus the volume of my sump. I think I used 6 grams. The second dose a few weeks later wasn't as dramatic for the fish, because I lowered the dose to 5 grams. As long as your fish aren't injuring themselves by crashing into things, and eat well, maybe you should continue with careful observation.

[shari2]

yes, the med paralyzes the worms. don't worry - it won't wear off and they won't 'come back to life'. it does only affect adult worms, however. eggs/larvae won't be affected. thus the second and third treatments to stop the life cycle are necessary.

Do a gravel vac (a very careful one!) of the entire substrate. Cammallanus is a pernicious worm. I wouldn't wait 2-3 weeks for a second treatment. more like 5 days.

levamisole used to be dosed as MUCH higher concentrations than currently used. it really isn't necessary, however.

the thing to watch out for is that often, by the time you can actually see the worms protruding from the anus, the fish is so badly damaged internally that they can't pass them. there is also a very high risk of fish developing secondary internal bacterial infections due to the injuries to the gut.

Keep the water very clean, vacuum all substrate surface, and keep an eye out for symptoms of infection.

[malia]

thank you shari... i did a vacuum last night to pick up any worms, eggs etc off the gravel and will do another one tonight. (i'm relieved to hear they don't come back... i'm still hoping my keyholes will be able to pass the worm.) i still have 7.5 grams left of the levamisole so i will do two more treatments at the lower dosage... i'm sure i'll have enough. (i'd really like to be finished treatments by the end of the month as i'm going away on holiday for a week and don't know anyone i could trust to do the gravel vacuuming and to monitor the fish for signs of distress.

how should i go about cleaning my filters to rid them of any eggs etc? or do i just have to wait and let the second and third dose hopefully eradicate them as they mature? And i have two pieces of heavily planted driftwood...how should i attempt to clean these off? sorry for picking your brain this much... but i might as well ask so i don't screw this up. (if it makes a difference one log has a little grove of java fern planted in a deep crevass and the other log had a well rooted anubia atop it.)

[shari2]

how should i go about cleaning my filters to rid them of any eggs etc? or do i just have to wait and let the second and third dose hopefully eradicate them as they mature?

For the filters, you can rinse the media in tank water if it's yucky. Most eggs/larvae develop inside the hosts, but I'm not a specialist so I can't say definitively that you won't have viable juveniles to deal with outside of your fish.
Here's the link to the html version of Roy Yanong's article. The pdf file seems to be taken down, now so I'll have to update the link in my article. The images are gone, as well.
Nematode Infections (Roundworm) Infections in Fish

Developmental time of the juveniles can be affected by water temperature. The cooler the water the slower the life stage progression. Of course, if you don't know the specific type of worm you're dealing with it's far from an exact science.
In our warm water tanks treatment a week to 10 days apart is probably wise. Make sure you do a large water change (or series of smaller ones if your tap water is significantly different from your tank) after and again before treatment.
If you're treating a cold water tank, treat about 2-3 weeks apart and possibly do a fourth treatment if you don't see all the fish thriving. For instance, in Capillaria species a complete life cycle can take about 3 months at temps between 68 - 73F. In my mind it's better safe than sorry. You don't want to find yourself having to go through the cycle all over again.

And i have two pieces of heavily planted driftwood...how should i attempt to clean these off? sorry for picking your brain this much... but i might as well ask so i don't screw this up. (if it makes a difference one log has a little grove of java fern planted in a deep crevass and the other log had a well rooted anubia atop it.)

Again, without a live host the eggs/larvae won't develop but since the fish will be passing the worms it is a good idea to clean up organic debris as much as possible rather than risk re-infection. Since you don't really know for sure what parasite you're treating without a microscope to analyze, it may be wise to rinse them in tank water to remove the accumulated gunk/detritus (and any possible eggs/larvae) as much as possible.

It is also possible to transfer parasites with an indirect life cycle via live foods. Tubifex worms are often a culprit in those cases.

Do you have snails in your tank? (sorry if you'd mentioned it and I missed it) Camallanus worms have an indirect life cycle.
From Roy's article:

Camallanus species have indirect life cycles and are live-bearing nematodes. They are considered "ovoviviparous" ("ovo" is the scientific term for "egg" and "viviparous" means live-bearing), as females incubate the eggs which hatch into larvae within their bodies (Figure 13). These larvae are excreted into the water with the fish's feces and are ingested by a copepod or other crustacean. Within the copepod, the larvae develop further into a third-stage larvae. After the copepod, containing the third-stage larvae, is eaten by the appropriate fish host, the larvae migrate out into the fish, develop into reproductive adults, and the life cycle is complete.

[shari2]

According to this website camallanus has a 30 day life cycle. His effective treatment was ultimately Fenbendazole.
http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/154/

Keith - I agree. Ideally it would be wise to try out meds on a few fish in a qtank first. It isn't always possible, however.

and oh, boy.
see "Transmission Ecology and Larval Behaviour of Camallanus cotti (Nematoda, Camallanidae) Under Aquarium Conditions"
this abstract:
http://www.citeulike.org/article/3646826

Abstract The parasitic fish nematode Camallanus cotti has been reported from a number of freshwater fish species around the world. Its wide geographical distribution seems mainly to be the result of anthropogenic dissemination due to extensive ornamental fish trade. In most reports it is assumed that C. cotti's life cycle involves cyclopoid copepods as intermediate host and various freshwater fishes as final host. However, the species' relatively frequent and persistent occurrence in aquaria worldwide strongly indicates flexibility in its life cycle, i.e. the ability to infect the final host directly. The present study has shown that under aquaria conditions, without any presence of copepods, C. cotti is able to infect various phylogenetically distant fish species directly for at least three generations. It was further shown that the infective free-living first-stage larvae may survive for more than three weeks in the host-external environment and that their host-attracting behaviour is not precluding direct transmission to the final fish host. Any treatment for C. cotti under aquaculture or aquarium conditions should be directed towards both individual infected fish hosts as well as the free-living larvae on the substrate.

could be why camallanus are so difficult to get rid of once you have them...

[malia]

very interesting reads! it makes me all the more determined to battle this thing and win! i have rather a lot of malaysian trumpet snails in the tank. i bought the tank, substrate and the snails that came along with it from a friend from work. He's been fish keeping for years and he swears up and down his fish never showed signs of any parasites, that tank or any of the others. ( i think he has about three or four running right now) His angels that he had in my tank are still healthy in their new home, but he is keeping an eye on them incase the parasite originated from his tank. I think it's more likely the worm came in with my guppies... who were the first fish i put in the tank after i cycled it. after about two months with them they started dying and i had no idea what was killing them... i thought maybe i was feeding them too much as it looked like they were exploding! ( i now know this was the worms sticking out their vents )

if the snails are acting as an intermediate host... will the meds work on them as well? as i said in an earlier post many of the adult snails did not like my high dosage and have died...(scooped the ones that i could find) but many of the smaller ones have still survived. (it seems to be a thriving colony under my substrate, but it's never really bothered me...they keep my glass lovely and clean, don't bother my plants and aerate the substrate. a perfect snail in my mind)

the loaches don't even bother to try and eat these mts... they much prefer the ramshorns that came in on my plants a while ago. haven't seen one in a while... possibly cowering in a corner?

i feed my fish frozen bloodworms as a treat... could this be a source? or would freezing successfully kill the worm? maybe i should throw out the remainder?

[shari2]

I doubt it's the frozen bloodworms.

MTS are nearly impossible to erradicate once they've established several generations. Although, I can't keep a live colony in my clown tank for nuthin! They find them all and stack the empty shells in a corner. Makes cleanup nice, I must say.
However, if they are carrying the parasite you DON'T want your fish eating them, anyway!

Levamisole at the recommended dose won't harm the snails. Fenben will kill them off. I like the mts, too, but when you're dealing with them as an intermediate host for a nasty parasite they are a problem.

I am not sure if the levamisole will clean out snails.

I did read one account where a fellow treated his tank with the Levamisole, saw his snails retracting and acting weird, so he moved them into a tupperware container. A few hours later he saw a clump of fecal matter with worms in it. Leads me to think that the treatment in the tank will also affect the snails if they are carrying adult worms, but I'm not so sure about the egg/larval stages. Everything I've read says that it only effects the adult stage.

Basically, you're stuck with multiple treatments to get rid of them as they mature, I think.
..........
Another thought that was mentioned in that same account was that the initial negative responses from the snails (and a few of his fish) was due to the adult worms detaching from the gut. I'd imagine that could cause some distress in the infected animals...

[malia]

interesting note on the snails.... i had a closer look at a couple... one appearing to be *ahem* mid poop and lo and behold i saw a nasty little worm within the poop. appeared to be dead. which is good. (removed poop from tank) so the medicine might have some effect on the snails at a higher dosage? ( if it doesn't kill them at that same high dosage.

update on the fish.

performed another gravel clean last night and found no reminants of worms in bucket... not sure if this is good or not.

rummy's got their bright colouration back for about an hour in the evening and then faded to pale grey... not sure what happened there as i hadn't touched the water yet.

it's touch and go with a couple fish... the one rummy i was sure was going to die first due to an open wound on his side is doing rather well, seems clear of worms and his heartily eating, and despite his pale colour, he looks to be healing up but time wll tell (fingers crossed)

my favourite guppy looks rather swollen and wasn't eating until i offered some zucchini and he's looking alot perkier this morning.. but still fingers crossed he can pass whatever is blocking him up.

i have two keyholes... (one the size of a quarter the other a nickel that both seem to be having their own respective difficulties) the smaller one can't seem to pass his worm despite eating lots of zucchini and remains quite "marbled" and hangs near the top of his tank. He shows a peculiar behavior whenever a fish passes near, as he exposes his belly.... possibly saying to the other fish... "here eat this tasty worm...get it out of me?" not sure really. The other larger keyhole was the first to pass his worm but remains stressed and sits in the bottom corner and won't eat.

the other three keyholes are chipper and back to their old inquisitive selves.

just thought i'd keep those interested updated on my fish...

[shari2]

glad to hear it, malia.

common sense says to me that if the med is in the water then it's in the fish and the snails...and if the snails are passing paralyzed worms then I'd say the treatment should work on them as well.
i think...