Just drop it a few degree's very slowly over the next few days. 82F should be low enough. If the fish are perking up, then another small water change would be OK, about 10% (with salt), that will replenish some of the Kh. Adding some baking soda would help raise the Kh too, but I'm afraid the pH might go up too fast if you use baking soda.
You are correct about Ammonia -->Ammonium relationship with pH. Temperature is a factor in the relationship also. If the pH raises too much, all that ammonium will convert back to ammonia and be toxic to the fish.
"Free ammonia (NH3-N) and ionized-ammonia (NH4+-N) represent two forms of reduced inorganic nitrogen which exist in equilibrium depending upon the pH and temperature of the waters in which they are found. "
http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-r ... a/nh3.html
Do you have some some Amquel+ or Prime, or something else that will bind to free ammonia? That would be great to have right now and use it during water changes or when ammonia is present. An Ammonia NH3 meter would be good to get also. There are cheap ones for about $5-10 at the LFS that stick to the inside glass of the aquarium.
These water chemistry and water quality issues really have me concerned. I hope everything works out.
Long battle with Ich...I need help
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
No worries on the water parameters
and thanks for clarifying the ammonia > ammonium relationship
the water parameters are fine..the strips were just giving inaccurate readings
I got the API master freshwater kit and all parameters are perfect...and for the record the freshwater kit is the best investment I've made for my tanks by far
the loaches were outside begging for food this morning (like they normally do) but were still a little skittish to actually come and eat the food
I think they'll be fine with a couple more WC over the next week
I also switched from Aquarium Salt to Pickling salt (100% salt no additives)
good deal too..I got a 4.4lb bag for $2
there no garbage that is left after the salt dissolves...none whatsoever
the big guy still has 1 spot that I was able to see this morning...actually 2
1 on his tail fin and 1 on his left side
the mess of spots (15+ spots that he had) have cleaned up for the most part and other fish still remain unnaffected so far as I can see
So I guess it's going well so far
I also picked up some Super Ich Cure med in case the salt doesn't do the trick...I know it stains the silicon and isn't generally safe for loaches but she swore up and down (as have others) that it is the only stuff that works for ich...and with the severity of this infestation I just might end up using it if it's not cleared up within' the next month
I feel like I keep getting it to the point where it's almost gone...then it just blows up again
thing I'm worried about with the super ich cure is...if it's staining the silicon in the tank...is it degrading the silicon as well? (I'm assuming it's also softening up the silicon if it's able to stain it)
here's hoping the next post will be "IT'S GONE!"
and thanks for clarifying the ammonia > ammonium relationship
the water parameters are fine..the strips were just giving inaccurate readings
I got the API master freshwater kit and all parameters are perfect...and for the record the freshwater kit is the best investment I've made for my tanks by far
the loaches were outside begging for food this morning (like they normally do) but were still a little skittish to actually come and eat the food
I think they'll be fine with a couple more WC over the next week
I also switched from Aquarium Salt to Pickling salt (100% salt no additives)
good deal too..I got a 4.4lb bag for $2
there no garbage that is left after the salt dissolves...none whatsoever
the big guy still has 1 spot that I was able to see this morning...actually 2
1 on his tail fin and 1 on his left side
the mess of spots (15+ spots that he had) have cleaned up for the most part and other fish still remain unnaffected so far as I can see
So I guess it's going well so far
I also picked up some Super Ich Cure med in case the salt doesn't do the trick...I know it stains the silicon and isn't generally safe for loaches but she swore up and down (as have others) that it is the only stuff that works for ich...and with the severity of this infestation I just might end up using it if it's not cleared up within' the next month
I feel like I keep getting it to the point where it's almost gone...then it just blows up again
thing I'm worried about with the super ich cure is...if it's staining the silicon in the tank...is it degrading the silicon as well? (I'm assuming it's also softening up the silicon if it's able to stain it)
here's hoping the next post will be "IT'S GONE!"
another thing I forgot to mention which just doesn't make sense to me...not really concerning the ich but here goes
When I looked at the clowns last night (they were all swimming around in their huge cave) they seemed extremely fat...like they were overfed horribly
thing is...they've been refusing to eat for the past 5 days at least
to the point I've actually stopped feeding because it only contributes to poor water quality when they don't eat
I got a little worried with their lack of interest for the food I was feeding them so i tried a few things
Tried the pellets they love so much and they didn't touch them
tried some kelp flakes (which they usually love too) and they didn't touch them
I tried soaking their favourite pellets and the kelp flakes in garlic...didn't touch them again
I tried bloodworms (the frozen ones that come in cubes) and they didn't touch those either
I finally tried about 20 snails and even then they didn't seem very interested to eat them immediately (they usually grab at least 3 of them before they hit the substrate that's how much they love the snails)
these attempts at feeding have been over the past 5 days or so and all food that was not eaten was siphoned up within 12 hours (so the water quality is still pristine)
currently there are no snails left in the big tank...so they did eat them eventually ...but I didn't see them eat a single snail
they've been very protective of their cave lately...almost hesitant to come outside even
the big guy will come to the entrance and dance around so I can see him...but then he kind of hovers at the entrance of the cave and does not go outside...even if there is food right outside the entrance...he won't leave the cave
all the other loaches are showing the same behaviour except they are tending to hide all around the cave...while the big guy patrols and makes sure everything is ok
once the big guy gets stressed / spooked the rest of them all huddle around and display the same behaviour
I can only attribute their behaviour to the stress of not having enough hiding spaces since I had to remove the other 2 caves that did not allow water to flow through (as was recommended)
the thing I don't understand is what the heck are they eating? Honestly they absolutely refused to eat anything except the snails (edit: unfortunately the snails don't breed fast enough to allow me to feed them snails every single day...it's kind of a once a week treat)
I would come home after work eager to see all the food gone ... and sure enough they didn't touch anything at all
and when I say they look overfed...they are REALLY fat...fatter than I've seen them ever
the only odd behaviour is their lack of interest for their normally favourite food and their territorial cave behaviour
otherwise they are acting like their usual goofy selves (which I'm very happy to see now...they had me scared when they were hiding all day long)
now they seem to a lot more active (but only inside the cave)
my wife hasn't even really seen them outside unless the big guy goes out for about 10 seconds...makes a pass around the tank to make sure everything is ok...then pops back inside the cave again
any ideas?
edit: just before anyone states the already blatantly obvious...I know clowns don't breed in aquariums
When I looked at the clowns last night (they were all swimming around in their huge cave) they seemed extremely fat...like they were overfed horribly
thing is...they've been refusing to eat for the past 5 days at least
to the point I've actually stopped feeding because it only contributes to poor water quality when they don't eat
I got a little worried with their lack of interest for the food I was feeding them so i tried a few things
Tried the pellets they love so much and they didn't touch them
tried some kelp flakes (which they usually love too) and they didn't touch them
I tried soaking their favourite pellets and the kelp flakes in garlic...didn't touch them again
I tried bloodworms (the frozen ones that come in cubes) and they didn't touch those either
I finally tried about 20 snails and even then they didn't seem very interested to eat them immediately (they usually grab at least 3 of them before they hit the substrate that's how much they love the snails)
these attempts at feeding have been over the past 5 days or so and all food that was not eaten was siphoned up within 12 hours (so the water quality is still pristine)
currently there are no snails left in the big tank...so they did eat them eventually ...but I didn't see them eat a single snail
they've been very protective of their cave lately...almost hesitant to come outside even
the big guy will come to the entrance and dance around so I can see him...but then he kind of hovers at the entrance of the cave and does not go outside...even if there is food right outside the entrance...he won't leave the cave
all the other loaches are showing the same behaviour except they are tending to hide all around the cave...while the big guy patrols and makes sure everything is ok
once the big guy gets stressed / spooked the rest of them all huddle around and display the same behaviour
I can only attribute their behaviour to the stress of not having enough hiding spaces since I had to remove the other 2 caves that did not allow water to flow through (as was recommended)
the thing I don't understand is what the heck are they eating? Honestly they absolutely refused to eat anything except the snails (edit: unfortunately the snails don't breed fast enough to allow me to feed them snails every single day...it's kind of a once a week treat)
I would come home after work eager to see all the food gone ... and sure enough they didn't touch anything at all
and when I say they look overfed...they are REALLY fat...fatter than I've seen them ever
the only odd behaviour is their lack of interest for their normally favourite food and their territorial cave behaviour
otherwise they are acting like their usual goofy selves (which I'm very happy to see now...they had me scared when they were hiding all day long)
now they seem to a lot more active (but only inside the cave)
my wife hasn't even really seen them outside unless the big guy goes out for about 10 seconds...makes a pass around the tank to make sure everything is ok...then pops back inside the cave again
any ideas?
edit: just before anyone states the already blatantly obvious...I know clowns don't breed in aquariums
Fish that endure osmotic shock may swell up. That's the only thing I can think of.
When you say the water parameters are fine, I don't even know what that means. The numbers for Kh, Gh, and ph could mean different things to different people. If you could post the readings from the tap water and tank water, then that would give everyone an idea what the actual conditions are.
Posting all the numbers here is also a good way to document your water parameters for future use. Most people probably don't write them down anywhere and forget what they were. I know I am guilty of this. I need to start a new thread for my tanks and do this.
When I do water changes I usually only check the TDS from my tap and tank. I have an electronic pH meter, a couple of ammonia meters, and a few thermometers on my tanks that I check daily.
When you say the water parameters are fine, I don't even know what that means. The numbers for Kh, Gh, and ph could mean different things to different people. If you could post the readings from the tap water and tank water, then that would give everyone an idea what the actual conditions are.
Posting all the numbers here is also a good way to document your water parameters for future use. Most people probably don't write them down anywhere and forget what they were. I know I am guilty of this. I need to start a new thread for my tanks and do this.
When I do water changes I usually only check the TDS from my tap and tank. I have an electronic pH meter, a couple of ammonia meters, and a few thermometers on my tanks that I check daily.
Yah that's not a bad idea now that I think of it
the API master test kit has a log that you can fill out so I'll start doing that from here on out...and keep a tap water parameter list at the beginning for future referrence
they still don't want to leave the cave...i dunno why
they will only eat food that flows through the cave...so I've directed the powerhead to go straight through the cave so the worms go through...hopefully the food will be gone by the time I get home
and when I mean fine for the water parameters...the nitrates are 20-25 tops and ph was neutral and kh was neutral
I can give numbers most likely tomorrow night or maybe tonight if I get home early enough...I'm in the midst of fixing up my 125g which I plan on moving the loaches to once it's cycled and this ordeal is finally finished
I checked on the big guy this morning and the spot on his tail fin has dropped off now
he now has 1 spot on his left side 1 spot on his right side just under his dorsal fin
their behaviour is almost normal except for the fact they don't want to leave the cave...they're doing their little loachy dance but inside the cave instead of outside like they usually do
5 of them are very active but one of the smaller ones just wedges himself in a small space in the cave...and he pecks at anyone that tries to steal his spot...he won't school with the other loaches but when I saw him for about 15 minutes last night (he came out just before the lights went out) he seemed fine
none of them are looking for food outside of the cave at all...even if the food is 1cm outside of the entrance they won't leave the safety of their cave to get the food
I even tried a couple of snails last night to see if that would spark their interest...again they didn't touch them when I was watching
but this morning all the snails cease to exist
I'm worried if they continue with their lack of interest for food they might die...and siphoning up all the garbage they are not eating is pretty tedious now
anything I can try to feed them?
the API master test kit has a log that you can fill out so I'll start doing that from here on out...and keep a tap water parameter list at the beginning for future referrence
they still don't want to leave the cave...i dunno why
they will only eat food that flows through the cave...so I've directed the powerhead to go straight through the cave so the worms go through...hopefully the food will be gone by the time I get home
and when I mean fine for the water parameters...the nitrates are 20-25 tops and ph was neutral and kh was neutral
I can give numbers most likely tomorrow night or maybe tonight if I get home early enough...I'm in the midst of fixing up my 125g which I plan on moving the loaches to once it's cycled and this ordeal is finally finished
I checked on the big guy this morning and the spot on his tail fin has dropped off now
he now has 1 spot on his left side 1 spot on his right side just under his dorsal fin
their behaviour is almost normal except for the fact they don't want to leave the cave...they're doing their little loachy dance but inside the cave instead of outside like they usually do
5 of them are very active but one of the smaller ones just wedges himself in a small space in the cave...and he pecks at anyone that tries to steal his spot...he won't school with the other loaches but when I saw him for about 15 minutes last night (he came out just before the lights went out) he seemed fine
none of them are looking for food outside of the cave at all...even if the food is 1cm outside of the entrance they won't leave the safety of their cave to get the food
I even tried a couple of snails last night to see if that would spark their interest...again they didn't touch them when I was watching
but this morning all the snails cease to exist
I'm worried if they continue with their lack of interest for food they might die...and siphoning up all the garbage they are not eating is pretty tedious now
anything I can try to feed them?
ok the pH out of the tap is between 7.2 and 7.6 so I'm going to say it's 7.4 because it's slightly less blue than the high end...did the high range and it didn't register
tank params are ammonia .25 and I used some ammo loc in the morning
pH is starting to stabilize slowly but surely, last week it was under 5.0 and was barely registering
now the pH is 6.6 (still slightly acidic but hopefully tonight the WC should bump it back up)
and the nitrates were between 20-40 and hopefully the WC will fix that too
tank params are ammonia .25 and I used some ammo loc in the morning
pH is starting to stabilize slowly but surely, last week it was under 5.0 and was barely registering
now the pH is 6.6 (still slightly acidic but hopefully tonight the WC should bump it back up)
and the nitrates were between 20-40 and hopefully the WC will fix that too
I was just reading on some clown loach specifications and it was saying the gH should be between 5-12? is that true?
cuz if that is the case my water comes out of the tap at 125+ and there isn't much I can do about it
My parents have some kind of water purification system in their house that leaves 8ppm after filtration...but that would mean I would have to go there 2 times a week and fill a bucket up ...then drag it home and do my WC
cuz if that is the case my water comes out of the tap at 125+ and there isn't much I can do about it
My parents have some kind of water purification system in their house that leaves 8ppm after filtration...but that would mean I would have to go there 2 times a week and fill a bucket up ...then drag it home and do my WC
good news...i think all the spots are gone and the last WC the loaches came out and actually ate some snais...still refusing to eat anything else except live food so I'm getting them some ramshorn snails tomorrow to breed / munch on
the ones I have now don't breed fast enough to feed them daily so I'm going to get some ramshorn and malaysian trumpets in my guppy tank for a constant live food source...I think these horrible conditions over the past 2 months have triggered something
I'll keep it updated but the water params are absolutely perfect and I changed the carbon and siphoned everything I could find
they are back to normal so hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to see them in the light for a bit to see if those last spots are gone or if they are more like exit wounds
then 6 more weeks of salt just to be safe lol I'm not playing around anymore
thank god things are getting back to normal
thanks so much for your constant help / concern keith
much appreciated
the ones I have now don't breed fast enough to feed them daily so I'm going to get some ramshorn and malaysian trumpets in my guppy tank for a constant live food source...I think these horrible conditions over the past 2 months have triggered something
I'll keep it updated but the water params are absolutely perfect and I changed the carbon and siphoned everything I could find
they are back to normal so hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to see them in the light for a bit to see if those last spots are gone or if they are more like exit wounds
then 6 more weeks of salt just to be safe lol I'm not playing around anymore
thank god things are getting back to normal
thanks so much for your constant help / concern keith
much appreciated
Malaysian Trumpet Snails have very hard shells, many fish cannot eat them. Some fish learn how to suck the meat out of the shell, though. I keep raising pond snails and tossing them into the Loach tanks.
KH is not measured on any scale that reads 'neutral. It is measured in German degrees of hardness or in ppm, the same as GH.
Nitrates over 20 ppm are not good. Keep up the water changes! I generally keep the nitrates closer to 10 ppm and in some tanks the plants keep the nitrates even lower.
I have used some of the medicine that stains the silicone. I do not think it hurts the silicone. Gradually it may fade a bit, but basically your tank will have blue silicone for a long time.
KH is not measured on any scale that reads 'neutral. It is measured in German degrees of hardness or in ppm, the same as GH.
Nitrates over 20 ppm are not good. Keep up the water changes! I generally keep the nitrates closer to 10 ppm and in some tanks the plants keep the nitrates even lower.
I have used some of the medicine that stains the silicone. I do not think it hurts the silicone. Gradually it may fade a bit, but basically your tank will have blue silicone for a long time.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.
Happy fish keeping!
Happy fish keeping!
Your welcome Taylor. This has been a very unusual case of ich being that the white spots could only be seen on one of the loaches and that the spots lasted much longer than 1 week.
So the treatment you used was about 1.5 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water and that each ich spot on the body had a duration of at least 17 days, while at a temperature at 82 - 84F?
So the treatment you used was about 1.5 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water and that each ich spot on the body had a duration of at least 17 days, while at a temperature at 82 - 84F?
I made a mistake on the kH and when I was done fixing the ladies computer it was too late to edit..it was early and I still wasn't fully awake yet lol forgive me
I currently have ramshorn snails, malaysian trumpet snails and some other smaller snails that are breeding out of control in my guppy tank...when they get to be too much I toss a few in the loach tank and they go nuts
I think the loaches will have no problem getting the trumpet snails out...they don't crunch the shell until they get a lot bigger
they do suck the meat out of the shell and damn they are good at it lol
free food and it helps keep the guppies and their insane breeding under control
they can be quite messy and I just don't have the heart to give them to a LFS that will use them for feeders
Yah I used 1.5 teaspoons per gallon to start then after the cories died I started gradually getting down to 1tsp per gallon which is where I'm at currently
the temp was at 84f during the ich attack treatment and when those last 4 spots didn't drop off for 5 weeks+
I did a big WC to get all the junk the ich attack leaves behind out of the tank / substrate
that big WC did something to reactivate the ich cuz the spots dropped off soon after that WC
then of course the spots spread like crazy and I started the salt treatment and dropped the temp to 82f to try and get the pH situation under control like you suggested...and for the record is was the oxygen...i had them on almost full to get the surface agitation up...then I put them to about half power and the pH since then has slowly gone up...it's now up to 6.8 and I'm assuming the next WC in 3 days will fix that and make it perfect
nitrates are 20, nitrites 0 (so I think all the decaying plant that got trashed has finally been removed / decomposed)
the loaches were waiting for me this morning again like they usually do
schooling all around waiting for their food...it was only 4/6 loaches but the big guy was out and about with the other 3
they were foraging for food like they usually do...still very hesitant to go outside their cave ornament unless the food floats through they won't go and get it
they used to eat the freeze dried bloodworms right off the surface of the water ...but not right now
slowly things are looking better...but I can't get the big loach to come out in the light at all...I need to see if his spots are gone so I can start the countdown to remove the salt
I'm thinking to do it for 6 weeks after the last spot dissapears? is that overkill or justified with the severity of this outbreak?
I currently have ramshorn snails, malaysian trumpet snails and some other smaller snails that are breeding out of control in my guppy tank...when they get to be too much I toss a few in the loach tank and they go nuts
I think the loaches will have no problem getting the trumpet snails out...they don't crunch the shell until they get a lot bigger
they do suck the meat out of the shell and damn they are good at it lol
free food and it helps keep the guppies and their insane breeding under control
they can be quite messy and I just don't have the heart to give them to a LFS that will use them for feeders
Yah I used 1.5 teaspoons per gallon to start then after the cories died I started gradually getting down to 1tsp per gallon which is where I'm at currently
the temp was at 84f during the ich attack treatment and when those last 4 spots didn't drop off for 5 weeks+
I did a big WC to get all the junk the ich attack leaves behind out of the tank / substrate
that big WC did something to reactivate the ich cuz the spots dropped off soon after that WC
then of course the spots spread like crazy and I started the salt treatment and dropped the temp to 82f to try and get the pH situation under control like you suggested...and for the record is was the oxygen...i had them on almost full to get the surface agitation up...then I put them to about half power and the pH since then has slowly gone up...it's now up to 6.8 and I'm assuming the next WC in 3 days will fix that and make it perfect
nitrates are 20, nitrites 0 (so I think all the decaying plant that got trashed has finally been removed / decomposed)
the loaches were waiting for me this morning again like they usually do
schooling all around waiting for their food...it was only 4/6 loaches but the big guy was out and about with the other 3
they were foraging for food like they usually do...still very hesitant to go outside their cave ornament unless the food floats through they won't go and get it
they used to eat the freeze dried bloodworms right off the surface of the water ...but not right now
slowly things are looking better...but I can't get the big loach to come out in the light at all...I need to see if his spots are gone so I can start the countdown to remove the salt
I'm thinking to do it for 6 weeks after the last spot dissapears? is that overkill or justified with the severity of this outbreak?
I didn't know you were getting the snails from a fish tank.
Are you treating the guppy tank for ich also?
Otherwise you might be cross contaminating the tanks. The guppies could very well be the main hosts of the ich.
You might want to try feeding the loaches something else. I feed mine a variety of seafood. Their favorites are- shrimp, tilapia, cod, and clams. If it's not precooked, then I give it to them raw.
Are you treating the guppy tank for ich also?
Otherwise you might be cross contaminating the tanks. The guppies could very well be the main hosts of the ich.
You might want to try feeding the loaches something else. I feed mine a variety of seafood. Their favorites are- shrimp, tilapia, cod, and clams. If it's not precooked, then I give it to them raw.
I didn't have a choice in the matter up until this morning
they refused any type of food that wasn't live...so I had no choice but to feed them snails...they were getting really skinny and had that "pinched in" look to their bellies
I can't really treat the guppy tank until the loach tank is stable again...the guppy tank is where I house all my snails and plants and remove the excess from there to put in the loach tank (plants and snails)
and I thought snails couldn't contract ich whatsoever? maybe I'm mistaken but that's the only reason I continued to feed them the snails from the guppy tank
I have to wait until this tank is clean to begin treatment on the guppy tank (and yes I was wondering if the chance of cross contamination was possible and had planned to treat the guppy tank after this was done)
I've been cleaning the siphon with hot water before I use it in either tank for the same reason
short of me going out and getting another tank I dunno what I can do in this situation...
there's no signs of the fish scraping themselves or anything that I have witnessed...the cory in the tank was doing it last night for about 2 minutes but I think it's just because he ate WAY too much...he looked like he was squeezing his poop out or something lol
I just can't afford to have all my inverts and plants destroyed right now...I need to have at least 1 backup for all the plants and inverts and that won't be possible until i fix up my 125g and move to my new place
any suggestions?
they refused any type of food that wasn't live...so I had no choice but to feed them snails...they were getting really skinny and had that "pinched in" look to their bellies
I can't really treat the guppy tank until the loach tank is stable again...the guppy tank is where I house all my snails and plants and remove the excess from there to put in the loach tank (plants and snails)
and I thought snails couldn't contract ich whatsoever? maybe I'm mistaken but that's the only reason I continued to feed them the snails from the guppy tank
I have to wait until this tank is clean to begin treatment on the guppy tank (and yes I was wondering if the chance of cross contamination was possible and had planned to treat the guppy tank after this was done)
I've been cleaning the siphon with hot water before I use it in either tank for the same reason
short of me going out and getting another tank I dunno what I can do in this situation...
there's no signs of the fish scraping themselves or anything that I have witnessed...the cory in the tank was doing it last night for about 2 minutes but I think it's just because he ate WAY too much...he looked like he was squeezing his poop out or something lol
I just can't afford to have all my inverts and plants destroyed right now...I need to have at least 1 backup for all the plants and inverts and that won't be possible until i fix up my 125g and move to my new place
any suggestions?
apparently ich can hitch on snails...2 different people have told me through process of elimination that is the only way they contracted ich
good to know nonetheless
I found a grocery store that sells 1/2 shell green mussels so I'm going to try 1 of those tonight when i get home
apparently it's the best clown loach feeding frenzy you can witness (although I don't know what can beat a clown loach + snail feeding frenzy...they usually suck 4 snails out of their shells before they even hit the substrate lol)
wish me luck!
good to know nonetheless
I found a grocery store that sells 1/2 shell green mussels so I'm going to try 1 of those tonight when i get home
apparently it's the best clown loach feeding frenzy you can witness (although I don't know what can beat a clown loach + snail feeding frenzy...they usually suck 4 snails out of their shells before they even hit the substrate lol)
wish me luck!
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