Harassed Clown Loach

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betta blue
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Harassed Clown Loach

Post by betta blue » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:52 pm

Hi! New to the forum...and am concerned. I have clown and yoyo loaches. I have a 90 gal. tank that I introduced two clown loaches that unbenounced to me had Ich when I bought them. They are now fine and healthy and doing well. However, I had two clown loaches (1 inch) in a ten gallon tank to get rid of a snail population that I wanted to introduce to the big tank but now have a problem with them. My problem is that one of the clowns has nipped at the fins of the other clown. I am seeing holes in the back fin with white around them. Also, the dorsal fin is scrunched and not going up in full. They are in a tank with a Betta fish and a small bristlenose. I have dosed the water with 1 1/2 Tbsp of salt today but think I should also put Pimafix into the tank. I want the two clowns to get healthy so I can switch them to the 90 gal. Can you help me with the meds...everyone other than the harrassed clown is doing fine in the tank. Thx...Shar

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bslindgren
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Post by bslindgren » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:47 pm

You need to separate the two somehow. The tank is too small, and the dominant has nowhere to focus aggression other than the other clown. Perhaps put a divider into the tank if you don't have access to another tank.
Why does my aquarium always seem too small?

betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:13 am

Thank you but before I introduce them to the 90 gal. tank with the other two clown loaches, I want to be sure that they are healthy. Should I just transfer them? I'm worried about "fin rot" on the the one and don't want to transfer it. The Betta is doing fine as well as one clown so my assumption is nipping by the aggressive clown?. Is it safe to transfer the clown loaches now when one has distinct erosion of his tail and his dorsal fin is clamped? Should I not attempt to get him healthy and look at the 10 gal. as kind of a hospital tank? Please help...really new to this...it's been a year of attempting to learn about fish diseases. Appreciate any info you can give. Thx...Shar

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Tinman
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Post by Tinman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:02 am

Fin rot is a water quality issue. Remove any gravel from your hospital tank if thats what its to be for absolute cleanliness .Do water changes into the small tank from the large of 10-25% a day but do not introduce any water from the small to the large. Do not move these into the large until they are well.Add a piece of pvc for the small to hide in,short but just big enough for the one to get in. Clowns are not mean.Pimafix or Melafix will help as directed on the label but increase the water changes and do them daily before your daily meds dose. Good luck

I am assuming you do water changes on the large weekly or more often.10% every 3 days is pretty good in most cases. I also assume they are all well in the big tank from your post...

newshound
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Post by newshound » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:24 am

as you know using a qtank solves alot of problems
add more hiding spots
stuff the tank with them
who cares how full it is
as tinman said
take water from the big tank to the small one
I assume your doing 50% water changes weekly
drain your pool!

betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:23 am

I appreciate your knowledge on everything. However, everyone is going on about my water changes and not looking at my original question. First off...though I've only entered the aquarium world 16 months age...I love my fish and have worked hard at maintaining their health. I've lost one Bettat to dropsy and one otocinclus to I don't know what. My Plants look fine...all my fish look fine with the exception of one clown loach that I believe that the other clown has nipped it's ins and now they have a white halo around them. Also, the attacked clown, has a clamped dorsal fin. Everyone else in the tank is fin...water changes are great but I'm not dealing with that situation. I care about all my fish...have 16 in 2 five gal. tanks with a betta, 2 10 gal tanks and in July, a 90 gal tank to take care of my common pl*c and decided to have clown loaches to share his tank. Water quality is not what I was looking to hear...it's an easy answer without appreciating the set up....or the problem. I have bought a few fish that I needed to read up on the internet to take care of both fin rot when I purchased and Ich.

I have one clown loach not doing well and the other one doing perfectly.
Water quality is not the issue. The sick clown is now looking emancipated in additional to the clamped dorsal fin and white spots where it appears it's been nipped. I started pimalfix 3 days age.

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helen nightingale
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Post by helen nightingale » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:59 am

Hi betta Blue, and welcome

sorry to hear you are dissapointed to read replies about water quality rather than other factors like medication.

a lot of people here are very experienced fishkeepers, and understand water quality very well. there is good reason why they have talked about water quality to you. the water doesnt necisarily have to be dirty to cause problems, it could be fine for some fish and not for others. water quality can be the cause of MANY problems, so it is oftem THE answer, rather than the easy answer.

i assume you test your water? please could you post your results? this will assure people that your water is indeed good. please do not think i am saying i doubt that your water is good, but it is always best to check.

i personaly would avoid the salt, and finish dosing with the pimafix. remember that medicine treats the symptoms and not the cause of the problem though. thats why people will continue with their interest in water quality and the size of tank the fish are living in.

good luck with getting the clown better

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Vancmann
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Post by Vancmann » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:35 pm

Hi Shar, it would definitely be a good idea to treat the two Clowns in the 10G tank before you transfer them to your 90G tank. Also, Unless I see a picture, I cannot tell you if the hole with the white spot is fin rot, a bite or an infected bite. (Two) clowns alone can definitely and constantly battle it each other to the point where the weaker one gets even weaker where he becomes succeptible to bacterial infections. In general, if you are not sure what the spot is, don't take the chance transfering the illness to the 90G. In the 10G tank, the simplest and most important thing before any treatment is making sure there are ZERO ammonia, Zero nitrites and less than 50ppm nitrates in there. The tank water must also be rich in oxygen via an air stone or powerhead.
Good Luck!
120 gallon planted aquaponic tank with 10 clown loachs, first one since 1994, 1 modesta and 3 striadas.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:20 am

Shar,

If you're only seeing signs of problems in the bullied fish, you're sure your water quality is good in the 10, that there is no underlying disease or parasite issue in the tank or other fish, and you can acclimate the bully-er to the 90, it might be wise to separate the two and concentrate on healing the sick fish.

Also, the white edges around bitten or holey spots on fins are also possibly new growth. Have the fins been shrinking along the edge or growing?

There are a couple types of 'fin-rot'.

Fungal fin rot is usually easily treated with improved water quality. It presents as a gradual (or rapid, depending on how bad the environment is) 'melting' away of the fins.

Bacterial fin rot (which usually presents with splitting fins, often all the way to the body base) needs antibiotic treatment often stronger than Melafix or Pimafix - unless you catch the signs very early.

Stress will exacerbate any health issue in your fish. Stressed fish have lowered immunity and become susceptible to increasingly serious problems. Often one thing leads to another and it creates a downward spiral in the fish's health.

If the problem with your hurt fish is truly from aggression, removing the aggressor is the first step in treating the suffering fish. Once he is no longer under stress, it may be that all is needed is extra clean water, rest and time. It is easy for us to get into the habit of jumping to meds to heal our fish, but it isn't always necessary.

However, as Vancmann said, without a pic, it is only our assumption that you are correct that the new issue is fin rot. I'm not doubting that you know what it looks like, but it would help us help you if we could see it, too.
Diagnosing illness/problems in fish we can't see is a crap shoot, at best. Even those with superlative descriptions skills can't approach the value of a picture for the purposes of diagnosing. That's why you're hearing so much about water quality. Not because we are avoiding answering your question, but because we really can't tell what's happening based solely on description. We can give our best estimates, but if we are wrong we can end up doing more harm than good. Recommending improved water quality is one important thing that I know won't harm your fish.

I'm sorry I'm not more helpful. Is there any way you can post your water parameters in the 10g and the 90g so we can have a comparison? It would help in determining whether to move out the bully. Also, since you've started treatment with Pimafix in the 10, that means you will have to acclimate the bully slowly and carefully to the 90 that has none if you decide to move him.

And, truly, a picture is worth a thousand words in cases like this. 8)

Btw - how are the loaches tolerating the Pimafix? Any changes in behavior since the treatment began?
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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:31 am

Thank you for understanding my frustrations. I'm on your forum cause I spent hours checking the internet including your forum for some answers.

I have test strips:
My 10 gal. tank :
NO2 0
NO3 0
PH 7
GH 180
KH 180

My 90 gal tank:
NO2 0
NO3 0
PH 6
GH 180
KH 180

Tap Water
NO2 0
NO3 0
PH 7.5
GH 180
KH 180

I don't know how to send a picture...think I saw that in another post to you...should I check?

The 90 gal....2 clown loaches (Borneo) very healthy...good color...have had them almost 3 months. They are with a 9 inch plus common plec (reason for the 90 gal....bought him when he was an inch and a half and he kept growing) Also have a twig catfish in that tank. Everyone is doing fine in that tank.

The 10 gal. has one unhealthy looking clown, one healthy looking one (both roughly an inch and a half) and one healthy Betta that I've had for 14 months now.

I've been doing pimafix now for the past 4 days. The sick clown now has frayed fins, dorsal fin is no longer clamped but frayed. His nose doesn't look right and he's emancipated. He's still swimming fine and does swim with the other clown like they were a team. The other clown looks very healthy both in body weight and fins. The Betta which I've had now for 14 months looks fine too. The Amazon Sword plant that I've had for 12 months is suffering from I don't know...lack of carbon in the filter, pimafix?

My other four tanks are fine and everyone is healthy including the plants...will ask about the yo yo's (quite aggressive) and think of transfering them to the 90 gal. or would a better option be buying another tank? Will go there later.

Also, two clowns are borneo in the 90 and two are Sumatra in the 10...do they get along? All are about an inch and a half in length grown about 1/2 an inch since buying them...the 10 gal...beginning of August...the 90 gal beginning of Sept.

Would really appreciate more information.


Thx, Shar

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:27 am

If you have a digital camera (or access to one-even a phone) register on a free photostoring site like photobucket
or flickr and upload your photos from your hard drive to the image site. It's fairly intuitive. If you have problems post your q's and I (or someone) will try to help you sort it out.

Once it's loaded there, you copy the forum code, come back here, open a reply post and paste it into your reply. Hit the preview button to see if it's there, then post.

Your echinodorus may be suffering from the salt in your tank. They also frequently need iron root supplements.

The reason I asked how the fish were responding to the Pimafix is because, personally, I never use Pimafix with loaches of any kind. Had a bad experience with it. Melafix yes, Pimafix, nope. Since it doesn't seem to be having any beneficial effect at this point, I'd quit, but that's up to you.

There's a one degree difference in pH between your 10 and your 90. If you move your healthy loach (and the betta, if you're using the 10 as a qtank) put them in a bucket with some water from the 10g (not alot), then use an airline hose that you can knot to slow the flow to a drip and drip acclimate them slowly to the water in the 90g. Should take a couple of hours at least, make sure you have a large enough bucket to allow for it.

Alternatively, start to remove the salt and Pimafix from your 10g with small water changes and some activated carbon. Do a water change on the 90g. Use some of the water from the 90g as replacement water for the change you do on the 10. Not too much at a time. Do a few small water changes over the course of a day or two. The purpose is to get the two tanks as close to the same as you can to eliminate any shock in the transfer of the healthy fish out of your 10. Test both tanks again before you do the transfer to determine how much time the fish from the 10 will need before you can move them to the 90. The greater the difference between the two tanks, the longer the acclimation period needs to be. One problem with this is that the longer the bucket has to sit, the more likely you are to find the temp dropping depending on how warm your house is and how warm the tanks are.

The splitting fins indicate to me a need for antibiotics for the sick clown. Pimafix is not an effective antibiotic. It is a microbial growth inhibitor and it is not particularly strong. At this point, I think antibiotics might be the way to go, but I'd really need to see a pic if you can manage it. 8)

Is the little clown eating and still getting thinner?
And yes, borneo and sumatran clowns get along fine. Yoyos and clowns will be ok together too, imo.
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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:35 am

Image

Having trouble getting a picture.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:02 pm

Definitely fin rot, I'd hit him (metaphorically) with some Kanacyn. Nice broad spectrum antibiotic.

He doesn't look too thin, yet. Is he getting enough to eat? Was he more chubby and has gotten progressively thinner? Do you think it's because he's been harassed away from the food by the other clown?
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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:06 am

Thx for quick response. Will try to find Kanacyn today. I do have Maracyn Two. Would a 50% water change be enough before changing medication. I have Maracyn-Two at home now. Would that be ok? Should it be full dose or half dose for the clown?

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:49 pm

You don't want to underdose antibiotics. You could end up creating resistant strains of bacteria.

Before you start with the antibiotics I'd try to remove the salt and the pimafix. To desalinate, you must do water changes. for the Pimafix, put some carbon in the filter and let it run for several hours.

To be on the safe side at my house I try not to do huge water changes, especially where chemical changes to the tank by the fresh water could be extreme. In your case, you're removing both salt and pimafix and a 50% change would be rather drastic. Around here, for some reason I've yet to discover, large water changes do more harm than good. I'd recommend doing 3x20% rather than 50% at once, but you may already have done it. <sorry>

Yes, you could use the maracyn II. follow the directions on the package, don't underdose. Add extra aeration via lowering the water level, or an air stone, and sometimes you will notice the tank becoming cloudy. If so, test for ammonia/nitrites as it can affect the bio-filter.

Are you removing the other fish?
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