Harassed Clown Loach

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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:47 pm

Thank you for your quick response. This is in my "busy season"...just came back from out of town. Afraid I did do the 50% change a few days ago. I am about to put the carbon back into the filter and do another 20% change tonight. I have called my 10 gal. tank a "hospital tank" primarily not to put sick fish into a 90 gal. that takes a whole lot more to cure anything. I am very apprehensive of putting sick fish into it. Also worry if I have one sick fish...what about the others. Roughly by the middle of October, I got the two clowns in the 90 looking healthy from buying them with Ich...I only used salt and temperature....everyone other than the plants did well....plants are starting to come back now. Don't know how to check for salt in a tank but assume there is still some in the 90 gal. I did do half doses of it for the clowns.

The "badgered" clown has found a spot to get away from the other clown. Actually, not even sure about the Betta...he's also a bit of an Alpha Male...different than two other ones I have. I only saw "frayed edges" on the sick clown's fins in the past 3 or 4 days. Initially, I saw small holes in the back fin with white circling them like a halo that I assumed was bacteria or fungus and was worried about fin rot...that's when I started to post. I'm thinking that tomorrow, I may get a tank without a lid and light, but buy a fitler and a heater...yes, it's -20C here.
Then I can do that bare tank and try to get it going like you had mentioned with water from the existing tanks...20% change isn't enough...but if I put water from the other tanks into it...can it be set up fast? Always waited about a month with the other tanks before introducing fish.

I will use the Maracyn-two if I can cause I have it or should I try to find the Karasyn?

Totally appreciate your emails.

Thx again,
Shar

starsplitter7
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New Tank

Post by starsplitter7 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:33 pm

I am new, so I leave the experts to give the advice on the treatment. But I have one small piece of advice. If you get a new tank, make sure you have some sort of lid, since the fish can jump out. I used craft plastic mesh that costs less than $2 a sheet to plug holes in my tanks. You could probably use it to keep your inhabitants in the tanks. Attached with tape or something. Or get one of the screen reptile lids that fit on the tank. I lost my elephant nose during treatment when my roommate left the lid up on his tank.

Good luck! Tanja.

betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:13 pm

Thank you Tanja! Good advise. I do have screen on the holes of my existing tanks but agree that it is something I should look at with a hospital tank. I totally appreciate your advise.

Thx,
Shar

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:59 pm

If you're setting up a clean 'new' tank, to cycle it:

Fill it with dechlorinated, warmed water. Take some of the filter media (won't need alot, you'll only have a small bioload in the 10g) and place it in the filter you put on the 10g. you don't need to add water from the 90 if you use some mature biomedia from the 90 for the filter in the 10.

and i second the lid idea. 8)
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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:06 am

I do not want to transfer any sick fish to the 90 gal. til I know they are healthy...it's harder when they are in that size of tank. I looked at my existing 10 gal as equivalent to a tank I could medicate. Actually, still don't understand why that can't work...yes, I've been told it should not have any substrate, etc...but can you just answer me why? No carbon in the filter...same fish that have been exposed to my problem...I still think they all need to be medicated...and don't want to take two out and maybe infect healthy fish in the 90 gal. tank? Guess I'm stupid or just my logic is not logical? I still am confused on whether to buy another aquarium and worry about set up for it and whether I can get proper parameters from the other aquariums to avoid the "new aquarium set up". or just try to dose my small 10 gal. one with existing inhabitants that have all been exposed to the bacteria, fungus...whatever.... cause I've been told it's cause of water quality...that means they all are suffering. Have I totally lost all my mind? I work hard at figuring out what I need to do with my fish. I'm worried, that if it was water quality, it means both clown loaches and the betta are vulnerable. I did the 20% water change tonight and put the carbon back in...will do the maracyn-two tomorrow...I'm just so confused on what to do...hospital tank...put them through "new aquarium syndrome" if I don't get it started right...never heard an aquarium started that quickly but accept your knowledge...or an existing aquarium that's been up and running for a year and using it as hospital tank?

I care a lot about every fish I have. I'm just asking for help.

Shar

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:34 pm

It's ok Shar. Take a deep breath. 8)

Use your 10g. Treat all the fish, it's not a bad precaution. You don't want to risk infecting the 90 and that's fine. Better safe than sorry, after all.

When you start the Maracyn be on the lookout for cloudiness, it is ok, it sometimes happens with Maracyn. Do another waterchange just before you start treatment. Remove the carbon, increase aeration, and monitor the ammonia/nitrites with your test strips. Feed lightly. Follow the full course of treatment and replace the carbon when it's done and do a water change.

Let us know how it goes. How is the little guy today?
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betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:57 am

Thanks for the deep breath! Needed that! Well, I was out of town on Sat. and did one more dose of pimafix when I got home. On Sunday, I put the carbon back in and today took it out, did another water change and swisched the sponge in the water. I did two tablets of Maracyn into the water per instructions on the label. My sick clown has found that he needs a place away from the other clown and does it all day until I place food. He's still eating but is not looking like a "full" clown. His color is fine...very deep black in his stripes. He's skinny but not totally emancipated yet. His clamped dorsal fin came up with the pimafix...but I still don't like his nose or tail fin or the bottom fins. Intially, I saw holes in his tail with white around them and then a clamped dorsal. Now I'm seeing fraying fins as you saw in the picture. I'm also concerned about a 14 month Betta in that tank. That's why I wanted to treat all of them instead of transfering them. I appreciate the concerns about water quality. My water quality is 0 for nitrates and nitrites but I have readings of 180 constantly for KH and GH. Is that my problem? My plants are doing fine in all of the 5 aquariums with the except of the sick one...but it has new growth looking fine and will pick up the sad looking leaves shortly.
I have dwarf frogs, glass catfish, albino bristlenose, bettas...and a common plec growing daily...they are all between 8 months and 16 months old. The clown that is sick is from this August. Two then and two yo yo loaches and two clown loaches in Sept. My first time with loaches. I am concerned about "water quality". As I said before, in 16 months, I've lost one betta to dropsy and one otocilclus to I don't know what but still have it's brother alive and well for 12 months and by himself for 5 mo.

Thank you for understanding that 1. My Betta in that tank is 14 mo. old and I don't want it to get sick. 2. I don't want to introduce disease into my 90 gal tank and hurt the inhabitants in it.

I did take a deep breath...attempting to do what I feel comfortable with...but still have questions...which the main one is that if my water quality is bad and I get fin rot...should I not be concerned about the other clown...and very important, my Betta in that tank?

Anyhow, I will keep in touch with the progression of my poor little sick clown loach.

Thank you so much for your advise!

betta blue
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Location: Edmonton, Canada

Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:35 pm

Tonight is my last night of Maracyn 2 treatment. My sick clown still has frayed edges on all his fins and nose? He hasn't lost weight but is the same as the picture I sent. The only difference is that he is not hiding anymore and is swimming constantly with his companion. The other clown and Betta are still looking fine.

The instructions on the Maracyn is that tonight is the last tablet and then do a water change tomorrow and put the carbon back in. My question is that cause the sick little clown still has frayed edges, do I repeat the 5 day medication? Do I put the carbon back in and wait to see if the fins will start getting better? I plan on doing a water change anyway tomorrow.

I can try to take another picture of the sick clown, but it looks about the same as the last photo. I will take the water readings before and after my water change tomorrow.

Thank you for your help.

Shar

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:29 pm

Tonight is my last night of Maracyn 2 treatment. My sick clown still has frayed edges on all his fins and nose? He hasn't lost weight but is the same as the picture I sent. The only difference is that he is not hiding anymore and is swimming constantly with his companion. The other clown and Betta are still looking fine.
Sounds like he's feeling a little better. What do you think?
The instructions on the Maracyn is that tonight is the last tablet and then do a water change tomorrow and put the carbon back in. My question is that cause the sick little clown still has frayed edges, do I repeat the 5 day medication? Do I put the carbon back in and wait to see if the fins will start getting better? I plan on doing a water change anyway tomorrow.
I'd do the wc and over the next several days do a small one each day. If after five or so days you see no improvement (or sooner if you see other negative symptoms) I'd consider using something that will treat a fungal infection, rather than an antibiotic.
I can try to take another picture of the sick clown, but it looks about the same as the last photo. I will take the water readings before and after my water change tomorrow.
If you can get one, it would be good to see the before and after pics on the same page for comparison's sake. Not that I don't believe you. I do. But it always helps to see a pic.
Thank you for your help.
You're welcome, and I'm glad he seems to be doing better. Over the next several days, look for regrowth in the fins. Should start with the splits beginning to close and white/translucent edges around the new growth areas.

Keep breathing. And keep up the good work. It seems to be helping. 8)
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betta blue
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Location: Edmonton, Canada

Post by betta blue » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:19 am

Thank you for the advise. Will do the water changes you recommend and put the carbon back in tomorrow. Will also try to take another picture of him to send.

Thx,
Shar

Diana
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Post by Diana » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:02 am

You were asking what about water quality and pointing out your readings for GH and KH were always 180 ppm.

Stable is good. 180 ppm GH and KH is a little on the hard side, but acceptable for the fish you have.

Do not try to alter it.

Water quality as it applies to disease is usually nitrogen.
Ammonia burns the gills and the tender tissue of the fins.
Nitrite caused Brown Blood Disease.
High nitrate causes a low level stress, not an acute disease sort of issue like the other two, but high nitrates can make certain bacterial problems worse, especially Flavobacter columnaris.

Usually a fully cycled tank will show no ammonia, no nitrites, but rising nitrates. Seeing 0 ppm nitrates leads to the suspicion of a faulty test kit. A heavily planted/lightly stocked tank can show 0 ppm nitrates, too. The plants are using all the ammonia they can, and then using the nitrate. The plants are starving for nitrogen.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:31 am

Thank you Diane. I wasn't sure about my reading for GH and KH cause its the same in every tank as well as my tap water. I have established plants that are a little over a year old in both my 5 gal. and 10 gal. tanks. I have 10 very small plants in my 90 gal. that still need to grow...been 3 months so far. They all have fertilizer sticks but I'm apprehensive of the plant food for them...think the poo of fish should be a good fertilizer but might be wrong about that.

Thank you Shari for all your advise. Not sure yet, but the sick clown is looking better I think...slowly. He's eating well, color is good. Swimming much more than before...with the other clown. Before all this, I saw the bigger clown harrassing the little one but now they seem to be buds and am not seeing any aggression by the bigger one. Dorsal and tail fin still showing signs of fraying but I think looking much better. Having trouble with the camera and need to find out the trouble with it...think it's a dead battery.

Just watching my dwarf african frogs giving me a show while I'm typing this...in a tank in my office. They make me smile especially when they are this active.

Will keep in touch with the progress of the poor sick clown that's looking much better. Thank you for all your good advise.

Shar

betta blue
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Post by betta blue » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:53 pm

Thank you so much for your help! The sick little clown is looking almost normal now. In a couple of weeks, I will put him and his buddy in the 90 gal...where they were intended to. I guess I also need to put the two Yo Yo's into it as well. They have grown to 3 inches in 4 months and now oversized for the 10 gal. tank they are in....going to be an interesting month transfering everyone.

My digital camera is still not working but I've just finished my overworked Christmas season so can now spend more time on fixing a camera, etc....between work and water changes...the camera was low priority. Have a week off and will slowly introduce the two yo yo's into the 90...and then in about 3 weeks or so, the clowns.

Thank you again! Merry Christmas! I'm so happy my clown has survived!

Shar

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:32 am

That is good news. Thanks for sharing. 8)
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