mysterious ailment, help needed

[mickthefish]

hi all
need a bit of advice,
i have a tank with assorted loaches, the water paras are fine.
botias got what looks like white-spot a week ago ,
treated accordingly spot dissappeared, then got a secondary ailment but only to the botias.
a pics worth a thousand words, this has happened overnite.



SHARI & DIANA this is your field could you give me some advice please.

many thanks
mick

[Diana]

I think you have the fast moving killer form or Flavobacterium columnare.
I will see if I can dig up a reference, but...
Flex is a bacterial disease that can cause many different appearing diseases. The actual bacteria does have a couple of strains, too. One can kill overnight. (Most can be cured with OTC antibiotics, and grow more slowly)

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/columnaris.html


The other possibility is this:
What did you use to cure Ich, and how long were they exposed? I do not know if it could happen, but could some irritants, or other problem have entered these fish through the feeding holes the Ich started?

[mickthefish]

diana,
i used interpet anti-ich the two known agents are formaldehyde and
methanol.what strengths god only know.
all the other fish in the tank have been unaffected by this treatment, which surprised me?.

mick

[Tinman]

Can they be getting inside a filter or pump, the second looks like damage towards the tail , can they be hiding in waste somewhere inside by a pump to cause the blotchy on the first. Either way anti biotics will help... Bad luck Mick..

[Diana]

That is why I wondered if the irritant had gotten in via the holes made by Ich. That really was only my second guess, though.

Google Flavobacterium columnare and check out the various scientific papers (government or university). A lot of work has been done on aquaculture of catfish, and they do get Flex in all its forms. There may be more pics, and your Yoyo looks just like some of the pics. Initial infection may be in the gills, or anywhere on the body. In the gills it looks somewhat brown (lighter or darker) On the body is starts as the grey 'foggy' area in your first picture. It can start anywhere, but if it gets started in the gills it can kill very fast. Ich also can start in the gills, leaving wounds for secondary problems.
One of the other common names is Saddle Disease when the bacteria start over the dorsal area. Fin rot can be caused by this bacteria or several others.

Poor guys

[mickthefish]

hi tinman
no they can't get in the filter mate and the tank is spotless.
as all the people in the UK will tell you it's virtually impossible to get anti-biotics here,
here's an example bud, ive used levamisol for years and try to buy some about 3 mths ago i'm still waiting for the vet to work out the dosage.
i told him i'd used it for years and know the dosage.
i'm still waiting for some

mick

[Tinman]

I noticed the first has the fins in place and the damage on the slime coat hence the question. Even the second has full finnage except the tail albiet clamped. You are in a tough spot indeed.

[mickthefish]

diana,
these two fish are no more now, i couldn't leave them in that state.
will anti- bacterial treatment help in saving the rest of them?.
again i'm using an interpet product, it contains.
Bronopol 522mg
Formaldehyde900mg
Benzalkonium chloride 250mg

thanks
mick

[mistergreen]

Oh, I didn't know the UK makes it hard to use antibiotics.. that's tough.. Those botia looked pretty bad.

I wonder if you can use organic antibiotics like tree tea oil, Honey even.

[Diana]

I would use whatever you can get, but I do not know if it will work in time to save them. Any fish still alive may have a slower growing form of whatever this is, though, so the chance of healing them is better.

There is one treatment that I know of for flex. It is based on the fact that flex is also knocked out by Ich meds, but at 4x the dose. There is an Ich medicine here called Quick Cure, and the dose is one drop per gallon. To make this into an anti-flex dip use 1 quart (1 liter) of water and one drop of Quick Cure. Catch the fish in a net, and keep him in the net. Dip the fish in the container hand hold him there for 30 seconds, then return him to the tank.

A similar dip can be done with highly salted water. As much as a tablespoon of salt per quart. Dip the fish for as long as he can stand it, (30 seconds to a minute) but if the fish rolls over immediately return him to the tank.

Whichever mix you choose, use tank water to make it.

Repeat one of these treatments daily for 3 days.

These are extreme measures, and are just as likely to kill the fish as the disease is.
If you are going to catch these fish, you might as well move them to a quarantine tank.

I have used the salt version of this, but the fish was a livebearer, rather tolerant of salt, and the flex was the slower moving sort. The fish lived for several more months, but ultimately did die (I do not know what she died of)

[mickthefish]

thankls for your help diana.
i'll try the anti-bac and see how it goes.

thanks
mick

[shari2]

Ah, mick, I'm sorry. Euthanasia was needed in this case.

Formaldehyde can be a very dangerous thing with fish. Did you treat them at full dose or half? I agree with Diana, you may be able to save some if you can get some antibiotics, but when it hits this fast there's little time.

I'd see if you can hit up Emma for a sympathetic veterinarian referral. In the meantime, yes, you can topically apply either melafix or even honey as was suggested, but in an already stressed out fish, that may do as much harm as the treatments Diana mentioned. And in the case of both melafix and honey, they are not true antibiotics and are not likely to be potent enough to kill off the flex.

I'd remove all botia species to a qtank, watch the other tank closely, try your damnedest to lay your hands on some antibiotics (since flex is contagious) and plan to treat both the qtank asap and the other fish that were in with the botia as soon as you can. You don't want this in your tank.

If you don't kill it off, it will eventually rear it's ugly head again when a sick or stressed fish comes down with it.

So sorry mick.

[loachmom]

Sorry about all this. This is really sad.

Since it is so hard to get antibiotics, is it possible that garlic can be used in any way for some of these ailments?

Just a thought.
http://medherb.com/Materia_Medica/Alliu ... erties.htm

http://www.garlic-central.com/antibiotic.html

[Mark in Vancouver]

Yikes. Bad luck, Mick.

[Diana]

I have heard of using garlic to prevent or 'evict' internal parasites. I do not know if it really works. The treatment is to feed the fish some fresh crushed garlic daily for a month.

I do feed my fish garlic, but they seem to like the taste, so if there are health benefits (improved immune system or whatever) there may be some benefit.

The flavor of garlic can tempt them to eat if they are not feeling well. This is one trick to getting medicated foods into the fishes' systems when they are being picky.