Water quality issue or disease, please help

[Curtis]

The aquarium system in question is my 1200 gallon, 4 tank central system. All tanks share the same water and are all on a continous drip water change system (the system runs through carbon blocks to remove chlorine), heating is done by hydronic heating.

I got married last Sept and moved all my fish at that time. Prior to sept water quality and tank maintenance wasn't best with very high nitrates. The move of the fish went fairly well with only losses of red line torpedo barbs due to low oxygen. Water quality after the move for the first month was not monitored so there could have been an ammonia spike or nitrite spike... it is unknown. But for the first month we did not lose any fish.

From October 2007 to present, water quality has remained consistent with the readings that I am listing in this post.

Since October 2007 I have had random fish deaths, particularly clown loaches and rostrata's and kubotai's... non loach species lost include neon tetra's and tiger barbs.

Fish death range around 1 every 2-3 weeks or so.

The tiger barbs and neon tetra's were asymptomatic prior to death... with them all dying suddenly... only 1 at a time over a period of months, there are still neon tetra's and tiger barbs living from this group.

The neon tetra's were purchased around 4/23/2006 or earlier.
The tiger barbs were purchased around 11/24/2004 or earlier.

As for the loaches, they would start to breath very rapidly continously but act and eat normally. Some loaches that were breathing hard would clamp their fins, but most do not.

This rapid breathing could go on for weeks potentially before the fish would die. No fish were gasping at the top of the water not even the fish that were rapidly breathing. The rapid breathing fish would swim and stay with the other fish, laying on the bottom or on driftwood or whereever.

Eventually you would find the fish that previously could not stop rapid breathing dead, on some of the fish you could notice red gills but otherwise the fish would look perfectly fine including good color and weight.

The kubotia's that I have lost were purchased around 3/15/2003 including the one in the picture or the rostrata depending on which species this fish is.

I have lost numerous clown loaches with similar symptoms, purchased either 7/26/2006 or 10/6/2007 depending on which batch of clowns the lose came from.

Now for all the fish that are doing fine, since not everyone is showing signs of this issue.

I have number red line torpedo barbs that are doing wonderful including breeding once for me... I have had zero losses from this type of fish in the same exact central system. The torpedo barbs were purchased around 1/24/2005.

I have also had only one yoyo pass away suddenly without symptoms out of a lot of 21 yoyo's that I have they were purchased 10/26/2007.

I also have jack dempseys that were purchased around 11/24/2004 that have thrived with zero losses.

I have long nosed loaches that have had zero losses purchased around 1/30/2005.

Red tail zebra loaches have also done well with zero losses purchased around 4/3/2005.

I also have botia striata's that were purchased before 11/24/2004 that I have had zero losses from.

I also have sids that were purchased around 3/15/2003 with zero losses.

Water parameters are as follows

Temp 81F
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
PH 7.5ish (I have a ph meter on order the test kit jumps from 7.4 to 7.8 so it's not that accurate)
KH 3
GH 7
TDS around 150

These water parameters have been consistent from around October 2007.

I have attached links to a picture of the gill area of a fish I recently lost. Do not open the link if you are bothered by dead fish pics, this fish body is in good shape I just wanted to warn those that do not want to see it.

http://www.awcinc.biz/gallery/albums/us ... _small.jpg
http://www.awcinc.biz/gallery/albums/us ... _small.jpg

I'm sorry for such a long and detailed post, but I wanted to toss out all the info I had.

So, my question is... is there a disease going on in this central system? Do I have some type of water quality issue?

What do you guys think?

Thanks for your help in advance.

[chefkeith]

What do you feed the loaches? I use to get random deaths when I use to feed them tubifex worms.
What kind of substrate is in the tank? If it's a sharp sand, perhaps it is injuring and infecting their gills.


Neon Tetra's and Tiger Barbs have had high fatality rates in my clown loach tanks also.
I added about 50 tetras 3 years ago, but now I have zero. They just disappeared slowly. The last one disappeared about a week ago. I think I have one or two carnivorous rouge clowns that eat them.

I don't know why Tiger barbs have never done well. I no longer have any and don't plan on ever getting more. Perhaps the water temperature was too warm for them. 2 to 3 years seems to be their age limit in my clown tanks.

[Curtis]

Round pea sized gravel is the substrate in all the tanks. Which isn't sharp in any way and I had this same gravel since before 2003.

As for food, I feed algae wafers, hikari carnivore pellets, HBH African Cichlid Attack pellet, HBH Angel / Discus Flake, and HBH Meat Lovers Flake includes Earthworm, along with deli flake that consists of (Brine Shrimp Flake * Spirulina & Kelp Flake * Tropical Flake * Plankton Gold), and sometimes shrimp pellets, and salad shrimp from the grocery store on some occasions

They kind of get a random mix of the food I listed above. I never feed live food, and I have in the past fed freeze dried food and frozen but I haven't since Sept 2007.

[chefkeith]

About how many fish do have in total?

If you have a few hundred fish and only get a random death or 2 each month, then I'd say your doing a pretty good job at keeping the fish healthy.

My only advice-
If you see the rapid breathing symptom happening again for a few days, try to isolate the fish in a quarantine tank. Then try treating the fish with some antibiotics, like the Maracyn I & II combo, and see if that helps. If the fish dies anyway, you may want to seek a fish veterinarian if you think this is an epidemic. Someone with a degree and microscope may be able to identify the problem.

[Curtis]

Clowns used to number around 32 or so, now maybe down to 16 or fewer not completely sure to be honest since they love to hide.

The concern I have is it primarily effects clown loaches and kubotai's from what I have seen. It could just be random and nothing to worry about... but other people including yourself have a large number of clown loaches without quite as many problems... so it concerns me somewhat.

I will have to try the antibiotics on a fish showing symptoms and see if it helps.

[chefkeith]

That is a lot deaths. Have their been any parasitic outbreaks since you got them? Did you give them any prophylactic treatments for parasites when you got them?

I've had many fish deaths over the years due to parasite outbreaks. Since I bought my last shoal of clowns,(3 yers ago), I haven't added any new fish. I've avoided many kinds of parasitic contaminations by getting most of my fish all at once. If I were to add fish now, I'd do a lengthy quarantine period and do several prophylactic treatments for external and internal parasites.

[Ardillakilla]

This really sounds like ammonia. Do you have a good test kit? I've found that the distinction between free/total or bound/unbound ammonia isn't that critical. There should be no ammonia of any sort, free or otherwise, unless you just treated it with a hefty dose of Prime and are aware you have an ammonia problem.

If your water supply has chloramine and you have a constant drip system then you have a constant supply of ammonia (which passes through RO membranes and carbon blocks).

I had symptoms of ammonia toxicity (red gills, rapid breathing) following water changes until I upgraded my RO filter. My RO filter is one sediment filter, two chloramine-specific carbon cartridges, the RO membrane, and then 3 DI cartridges. Previously, I had only one generic carbon cartridge and no DI.

[Curtis]

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit is what I use and it's new within the last couple of months. Plus this setup has around 50 gallons of bio balls and 6 sponge filters and several e-heim canisters for filtration. I would hope ammonia isn't an issue.

It is possible 10 months ago when I initially did the move that there was an ammonia spike, and that has caused this issue?

The thing that has me puzzled is if it's ammonia or a disease why only clown loaches and kubotai's when you have sids, striata's, yoyo's and other senstive fish in the same exact water.

[Ardillakilla]

Well, the constant drip might be adding more ammonia than your biological filtration can handle.

Also, the amount of chloramine in the water supply isn't constant. Treatment plants can increase its concentration dramatically for a myriad of reasons. For example, if any pumps go down due to a power outage, they no longer have positive pressure and will "solve" the problem by using a lot more chloramine.

Your carbon cartridges may also be becoming depleted.

Some fish are more sensitive than others. Even more than others regarded as sensitive. And even among the same species. I have one clown that always seems to be affected by water quality first. He is my sentinel fish.

I haven't had good luck with AP test kits. I use Hach and LaMotte exclusively now.

One thing you might try would be shutting down the drip system and adding a dose of Prime to neutralize any ammonia or nitrite that might be in the water. Switch to conventional water changes and always add Prime. Feed a bit less and clean a bit more and see if the symptoms go away.

[Curtis]

Contacted someone I know at the water company and chloramine is not used at all only free chlorine. I use two carbon blocks to remove chlorine. These blocks are good for around 40,000 gallons, I change them out around 10,000 gallons of water used. Also I have changed them out within the last 2 weeks and used a chlorine test kit that indicated zero free chlorine... plus with the volume of water I have and the amount of degassing that happens in this setup, I have a hard time beleiving it's chlorine.

I can certainly add some prime to see what happens, and I differently agree with you some fish are definitely more sensitive than others... but I'm clueless as to what in this setup they are so sensitive to.

[shari2]

This rapid breathing could go on for weeks potentially before the fish would die.

Looking at your pics it seems there's redness down under the head and into the pectoral fins. Did you notice this while they were still alive? Also, is it swollen at the base of the gills or is that an effect of the photo?

This crops up periodically, one fish at a time? Do you ever see your fish flashing? Do you have plants in the system? Ever had a major plant die-off?

I'd second the suggestion to remove the next one/two you see affected as soon as it starts and use some antibiotics/levamisole in combo.

A couple of possibilities:

1. It came with the fish and has over time gotten to be more than their immune system can handle. In this case either do a postmortem gill scrape and throw it under a microscope if you can, or find someone who can do so for you.

2. The possible ammonia spike over the move damaged the gills and they deteriorate depending on the exposure/damage to the individual fish. I'm not sure this is likely, since you're not even sure there was a spike, and I would think the entire tank would have suffered to one degree or another.

I'll try looking around for gill-specific issues. It's definitely not normal. Something is up in your system...

[shari2]

Look into gill flukes, Curtis. It is possible for fish to carry them in small numbers without issues, as the load increases the fish can't handle it. Given that you have an excellent set-up, continuous drip system, and clean and healthy tanks, you may have kept them at bay to a large degree. Wild fish almost all carry a few, but the larvae hatch and move on to other fish allowing individual fish to continue to thrive with low populations.

Some info from Exotic Pet Vet:

Monogenetic flukes are flatworms that are usually found as ectoparasites of fish. They often have a hooked attachment organ and they have a simple, direct life cycle. They are just visible to the naked eye. They often feed on skin and gill tissue, but usually only cause problems if found in large numbers. Gyrodactylus lives on the skin, fins and gills of many species of fish. This fluke gives birth to live young (others lay eggs). Clinical signs are "flashing" and skin problems. Treatment with formalin, praziquantel, TrichlorofonTM (dimethyl phosphate) or salt baths are effective. Formaldehyde is used as a bath for 12-24 hours at 20-25 ppm (mg/L), repeated every three days, for three treatments (same as for ich), with 30-70% water change in between treatments. Praziquantel is dosed as a bath for 3-6 hours, at 5-10 mg/L, repeated three times, with 30-70% water change between treatments. Praziquantel is now available in several commercially prepared tablets. TrichlorofonTM is used as a bath, for one hour, 0.25-1.0 ppm, repeated daily for three days, with 30-70% water change between treatments. Salt is used as a bath, as a 4-5 minute dip dosed at 30-35 g/L, repeated daily for three treatments, with a 30-70 % water change in between treatments.

Digeneans are endoparasitic flukes. They have two suckers, one at each end. They have an indirect life cycle, with fish acting as both intermediate hosts (carrying metacercaria larvae) and final hosts. Adult digeneans are usually found in the gastrointestinal tract, the larvae (which may be encysted) can be found throughout the body and cause problems if they invade such organs as the eyes (as does Diplostomum) or heart, in high numbers. The larval stages of digenetic fluke parasites (Clinostomum, Posthodiplostomum and Diplostomum) cause black spot in aquarium fish. Praziquantel is the treatment of choice. As a bath, for 3-6 hours, it is dosed at 5-10 mg/L, repeated for three doses, with a 30-70% water change between dosing. Praziquantel may also be dosed in the feed, at 5 mg/kg of fish, or it may be injected intraperitoneally or intramuscularly, dosed at 5 mg/kg.

Here's some images and directions for setting up a slide:
http://www.geocities.com/steevward/dactyls.html

I can't say for certain that this is your problem, but it's worth checking into.

[Curtis]

I lost another clown, this clown showed the same symptoms except the gills were not red while he was alive or even after death.. just lethargic with rapid breathing and eventual death. From the time I noticed him to death was probably a week.

I also got a new ph/tds/EC/temp meter from Hanna.

The meter has been calibrated and here are the results.

Central System
Temp 79.4
PH 7.95
TDS 164
EC 328

System in on continuous drip with incoming water of
Temp 76
PH 7.61
TDS 155
EC 310

This meter does PH in increments of 0.01 and was calibrated.

So since my ph is much higher than I thought.... is that the problem we are dealing with?

[chefkeith]

The pH sounds about right. The water is just degassed. It's just lower in CO2.

What is the drip rate or water change rate of the system?

The tank water TDS sounds pretty low, like your not letting any organics to build up. I don't think this is a water quality issue, but I think you might be starving the bacterial populations in the system. Too much bio media / filteration and and not enough food to support such large bacterial colonies. Maybe this could cause Ammonia or Nitrites to spike at levels just high enough to cause problems?

Timman mentioned something like this a few months ago. Maybe the water column is too clean, maybe you just need to let it get a little dirty. I never heard of a tank being over filtered before, but I think maybe you've done it.

It's either that or it's something like Shari said, gill flukes.

[Curtis]

2.5 gallons per hour is the current drip rate. I'm going to drop it to 1 gallon per hour and see how things go.

Do you think I should add peat to the system to lower the ph or see if the lowered drip rate does the trick.

When I had the post that Tinman posted on I was up to 10 gph so I have dropped it steadily since then.. but still having the same issue.