strange behaviour

[jono6466]

hi there,

im new to this purely because i have one concern:

i have 2 clown loaches in a tank with several other fish, and they have been fine. Normally the loaches can be found scurrying around the bottom on the tank (searching for food i presume). today i have noticed that both of my loaches are in opposite corners of the tank, in what can only be described as swimming vertically at the surface. like their mouths are at the surface of the water and they both are swimming vertically, as if to swim out of the top of the water. I have been observing this today and sometime they actually jump out of the water (not so far as to jump out of the tank because it has a lid on, but actually half of their body length out of the water- they are only small - about 5cm)

i jsut didnt know if this means anything? some sort of disease? all the rest of the fish are fine, the pH is fine, the water is clear, the filter is working fine, there is a plant in there and always has been, everything is the way it is before this strange behaviour started

so is this type of behaviour normal? does it mean anything?

would appreciate any thoughts, as i not exactly an expert on fish and i have only had these fish for about 3 months.

[fish_frenzy]

Something is not right. Do an immediate 30-40% (this is what I would do) water change and check ammonia levels, nitrite levels and nitrate levels.

Also, what is your temperature and have you added any new fish to this tank? How often do you do water changes? How big is the tank? How much water do you remove when doing a water change?

If you can post replies before the real experts come along, it will be a great help to them being able to diagnose the problem.

Hope this helps
Tammy

[starsplitter7]

Your fish are having problems breathing (often due to disease or too high Ammonia/Nitrites). Please post the answers to Tammy's questions. That way the experts can help you.

[Diana]

Also, clean the filter if it is slowing down, fish at the surface can be a sign of low oxygen and poor water movement is the most common cause.
Fish that are acting like they water to get out of the water are indeed often doing this because there is something in the water that is toxic or an irritant.

Ammonia, wrong pH, temperature and salt are the three things I would think of immediately, then any other possible toxins such as pesticide, cosmetics, paint fumes... the list seems endless.
Fish medications might do this.

Can you describe everything that has happened to the tank in the last few days, and post current test results, and compare these to prior test results.
Are you having any work done around the house? Fumes can be bad. Recent spraying for termites, or other household pests? (even exterior)

Add Activated Carbon to the filter, and then change it in just a few days. If there is a toxin that can be adsorbed by AC it will get filled pretty fast, and you want to keep removing whatever it is.

[jono6466]

wow, such a huge response, did expect all this lol

ok, i ve measured the tank and it has a capacity fo approx 16L (dimensions are 20cmx40cmx20cm), its only small :p

there were 2 loaches, one swordtail and one plattie in the tank and everything was fine

it was my birthday 3 days ago and my friend gave me 3 x panda angel fish (really thin and round, silver with black specks) and these have been in there for 3 days. thiking about it this is prob when the probs started. if it were me i wudnt of bought more fish because now its over crowded, but wht was i to do? i had to put them sumwher and i only have this tank.

the temperature is set at 27 degrees celcius, and always has been

the pH is between 6.5 and 7

i have jsut done a 9L water change which i do about once a month and i have just noticed that on one of the loaches that there is a thin cloudy film over parts of its body.

i have added neutral regulator which removes chorine, chloramine and ammonia from the water

i dont have anything to check the ammonia levels or nitrite/nitrate levels, maybe i should get these.

salt and neutral regulator have been added according to the manufactureres instructions.

the tank is in my bedroom, there is no work being done inside/outside the house or in any of the neighbours houses.

how do i add activated carbon to the filter/pump? theres only one compartment with the sponge in it? it wont fit?

all of the other fish seem to be fine.

[mack]

wow, such a huge response, did expect all this lol

That is what forums are for. Friends help each other.

ok, i ve measured the tank and it has a capacity fo approx 16L (dimensions are 20cmx40cmx20cm), its only small :p

Right for starters from what I have read Clown Loaches like a have a minimum size to over 100 gallon. Now there is one problem. On that the tank is far to small for the Loaches, even thought they may be small. Because once they get fully grown they can be over 15 inches.

there were 2 loaches, one swordtail and one plattie in the tank and everything was fine

A Sword Tail likes to be in a group. normally one male 2 females. And the same with the Plates. Plus the tank is to small for them anyway.

it was my birthday 3 days ago and my friend gave me 3 x panda angel fish (really thin and round, silver with black specks) and these have been in there for 3 days. thiking about it this is prob when the probs started. if it were me i wudnt of bought more fish because now its over crowded, but wht was i to do? i had to put them sumwher and i only have this tank.

Happy birthday.
Now I am not to shore on how big these Angel get but I do know that Angel fish are far to big for a 16 lttier tank. I would keep them in a 48 gallon [high] tank. Because they can reach up to 15 inches tall, depending on the species. But not normally.

All of the other fish seem to be fine.

Well they may seem to be all fine and healthy, but they are not. For one the angels live in soft acidic water like the Loaches, but the Swords and Platys live in hard alkaline water. So there are big differences.

Now to solve your problem I would get rid of you fish and start the tank again with small fish like Dwarf Rasboras, or a Betta. And if you dont want to get rid of your fish up grade you tank to a much larger on at least 100 gallon for the Loaches. And you will still have to get rid of the fish that dont have similar water parameters.

Now this may sound depressing, but it is, and that is for the poor fish.
I would suggest you read up on some books about fish keeping to help you make new and better choices for the fish you might get in the future, so you dont have sad and unhealthy fish living in incompatible environments.

Hope this is of some help,
mack

[jono6466]

poo.

it jsut seems funny, because i got all of the stuff from the same woman at the petshop and she advised me all the way on what to get an what fish are compatible with what. maybe i should pay them a visit and while im there look at the prices of big tanks.

thanks for ur help

anyone with any other thoughts are welcome to have ur say i will listen to all advice

[janma]

Something that only fits 16L should only be used for drinking or shrimp/snail tank. But never for any type of fish.

I would recommend that if possible visit another store or enlighten the old one. Giving fish is also not the best thing to do, tell your friend to give you a gift card next time.

And most important as mack said, read books, surf the web. Research every fish before even thinking about getting it.

And also: Happy Birtday!

[mack]

poo.

it jsut seems funny, because i got all of the stuff from the same woman at the petshop and she advised me all the way on what to get an what fish are compatible with what. maybe i should pay them a visit and while im there look at the prices of big tanks.

thanks for ur help

anyone with any other thoughts are welcome to have ur say i will listen to all advice

Hi,
You are most welcome for our help.

I thought that a pet-shop was at the bottom of this. Well that is where the problem is. Most pet-shops only care for the sale not the fish. So they will try and sell you everything that wont fit in the tank. It is a real shame they do this. That is why I suggested read up before you buy anything. Then you can be armed with this information, then you can put the shop through tests on their competence.

I have done this plenty of times. But most of the time it normally ends up in a argument with me and the manager over who is right. But that is me, I will point out all their flaws in a nut sell and ask the why are you sell 'Life's" when you dont even know what you are doing.

Now for a new large tank. I would look for a second hand one on line. They are normally a fraction of the price and very good bargains can be found. Because a friend bought a brand new 66 gallon tank for $1000. And you can get them even bigger, and pretty new for half that.

Hope this is of some help,
mack

[jono6466]

ok, so i jsut went out and bought an ammonia test kit, and a test kit which measures nitrite/nitrate , carbonate, pH and general hardness i also bought a digita thermometer that sits inside the tank and gives me a constant reading as well as a new/extra filter with carbon cartridges.


i thought my temperature was set at 27c...when in fact my digital thermometer read 28.9c so that has been adjusted.

ammonia test came back at 0 ppm (mg/L) which i believe is good news.

the general hardness of the water was 180ppm (mg/L) when it should be between 60-120ppm for most tropical fish including angel fish, community aquariums and swordtails. - is this correct?

the carbonate hardness was also 180ppm (mg/L) - could this be due to the salt in the water as it creates a brackish environment?- dont really know what it should be.

the pH is 6.5-7

nitrite = 0ppm (mg/L) - which is what it should be?

nitrate= 40ppm (mg/L) - this is the same amount of nitrate as in tap water, correct? this should be as low as possible in a salt water aquarium? how do i reduce it or is this level ok?


time to start looking for a big tank ;p

[silvermoon]

nitrate= 40ppm (mg/L) - this is the same amount of nitrate as in tap water, correct? this should be as low as possible in a salt water aquarium? how do i reduce it or is this level ok?

40ppm is right on the edge of safe (0-50ppm). Do the same test on water straight from your tap. My tap water is 0ppm (I'm lucky I guess). Usually the answer to nitrates is water changes.

I can't speak to any of the other parameters.

Where are you located? That will give us a better idea of what types of equipment are available near you, maybe even some good shops.

If you want clowns definitely find at least a 200L tank for now and plan to upgrade in the near future. It can be hard to find exactly what you want, but you need to get them out of that 16L ASAP. You may also want to consider keeping a different type of loach that doesn't get so big. (yoyo, striata, kubotai?)

I too got 'tricked' into getting clowns and I love them, but just upgraded once to a 55gal and plan to go 150 gal+ once we buy a house. It is not a cheap hobby!

[jono6466]

im in wellington point, in brisbane australia. i realised last night tht my friend also bought me a painted figurine to go in my tank when i previoulsy had no figurines at all, so i removed it becuase maybe i thought the paint was causing it. woke up this morning and they seem to be the same, ill do anohter 30-40% water change today and only time will tell i suppose....

[janma]

You really need to get rid of the fish in the tank or get a bigger tank, there is no hope for them in that 16L container. You can't keep your fish healthy in that one.

[helen nightingale]

you mentioned that you do a water change once a month. you really need to do water changes much more often. some bad fish shops can be very misleading, and indeed some fish tank packaging and instructions can be very misleading too!

you should be doing a water change once or twice a week, as a general rule. Because your tank is so small, and has too many fish in, it may be better to do water changes every couple of days, as long as you match the clean water to the old water with things like temperature, pH and hardness. Also, if you can, move the filter so as the flow is rippling the surface more, more oxygen can get into the water for the fish to breathe. alternatively, lower the water level a little bit.

this should only be a temporary measure, untill you can get a bigger tank. Did the lady in the fish shop give you any indication of how big the clown loaches get? they can become very big, chunky fish!

have a look here: http://www.loaches.com/species-index/cl ... cracanthus

it is very sad how little people ned to know to work in fish shops. i once worked in a big pet store. at the interviews we had to sit an exam ahout animals, there were all sorts of questions about all sorts of animals, but little on fish, and we sold lots of fish. the guidelines were if they had a green sticker on the tank, they could all go together as community fish, an orange sticker can mean grumpy fish, and a red one agressive or non community fish. it was horrible! this seems to be far too common, and its people like you and the fish who suffer from it.

i am pleased you are making an effort to listen to the advise and try and do something for your fish. i am sure that once you get everything on the right track, you will get lots of pleaseure from them (and maybe an addiction, like quite a few of us here "suffer" from)